Quote:
Originally Posted by TenHighCallDown
I think making huge isos of loose-passive limpers is a great place to start. If you're isoing a linear range for value, you want them to make bad -EV calls with janky hands. EV is a closed system in cash games, and the EV they're donating is largely going to go to the good player with the strongest and least capped range IP.
You're also forcing yourself to narrow your range when you open larger, for several reasons: 1) you're narrowing their range giving you fewer hands that are outperforming their range, 2) you're reducing effective stack size postflop, giving you less playability with otherwise profitable hands that leverage your position and skill advantage, and 3) you're giving yourself a more preclusive tax when players behind you wake up with a hand.
Finally, the passivity of the table also allows you to limp more speculative hands, especially as you get closer to the button, giving even less incentive to polarize your isoing range/
What isoing two limpers for 8bbs does accomplish is make you win more pots, keep you in more straightforward spots, and allow you to play the narrowest range possible, all of which are good for variance and makes your profit less reliant on skill. I'm not saying this patronizing btw; those are both real benefits, they're just not optimal and I post under the assumption that we're giving advice for optimal lines.
As someone with decent familiarity with the 1/3NL games in my area (both second-hand, and assuming the game hasn't monumentally been revolutionized the last few years, first-hand), I have quibbles with your assumptions about those games. Or at least with the reliability and how quickly you can verify those assumptions, which tends to make opportunities for simultaneously exploiting 8 different players exceptional rather than standard. But I don't think it's a huge deal, because I think this will only affect a squabbling disagreement over whether we can open 22 in EP for 5bbs or whatever, which (as SABR has alluded to) isn't a high-leverage enough discussion to really matter that much.
And IMHO, it's too low-leverage to be worth screwing around with your game in a way that gives you un-useful long-term experience, but whatever.
If we're talking in the most general way possible, I don't really think there's any condition where opening the BU for more than 3bbs is useful. And I say this as someone who has plenty of experience (recent or otherwise) with playing against blind permutations all over the map, from whale to nit, and there's just really not much exception to this statement. When the players are tight, blind stealing is worth too much to narrow your opening range/tax yourself when they wake up with a hand; when the players are aggressive, you don't want to hemorrhage chips to open/folds or open/cbet/folds; when the players are loose-passive, the spot is just too juicy for you to want to narrow your range of playable hands.
Opening size from the CO can depend on the BU, so whatever.
I already covered isoing sizes above, though obviously there are so many permutations of factors it's hard to satisfactorily generalize.
I thought the meme was "they always put you on AK." Go through the history of LLSNL threads and see how often people post hands where Hero is lost with AK. Ctrl+F the phrase "face up / face-up / faceup" in these threads. A totally clueless whale who hasn't the foggiest idea what a 20-something is opening preflop/cbetting the flop with is the exception, not the rule, even at 1/2NL. There seems to be a general understanding that something's wrong, but everyone's so averse to discussing things on a range basis that the solutions are left out of reach.
It's rare that you're at a table where your range is completely irrelevant to all 8 players. There are exceptions, obviously, which is the problem with arguing these things in the absence of an actual situation because we're both inevitably both right and wrong from some perspective or another.
Fish definitely call down lighter on 7-high flops than they do on K-high ones, and they definitely bluff more on 883r type flops than they do on other boards. I've joked for years that I'd rather play your typical live reg as PFR on a 883r board than a fish.
This is often what happens in these arguments about playing exploitatively. It's not sufficient to say, "They're bad, so play Level 1 poker." Yes, the opponents are bad, but you're not making good assumptions about how they are bad and how to properly exploit it.
Ive played plenty of 1/2 and 1/3 at Borgata, Md Live, and most notably (and with my total crusher status) at MGM National Harbor, which is a 1/3/$500 max buyin.
Talking specifically about the button: At 1/3/500, i go maybe 12 if folded to me, 15 with 1 limper, otherwise 20-25 pre from the button dependng on many factors, and I would say that limped or folded to me, i probably raised this amount 70% of the time? of course very table dependent. Even one aware opponent would cause me to play much more normal poker. The 30% of folds isnt the bottom 30% of my range its the 30% worst situations, typically when the one dude who doesnt suck postflop limped, or when im playing some normal 25-35% range because an aware opponent is in the blinds. but I would say if all the limpers/blinds were bad, I would raise pre from the button literally 100%, bet flop 95% ignoring when they give off one of their comically obvious tells.
3 bets are KK+ so ~55:1 odds I dont get C bet = -$0.50 EV of getting 3 bet. Although Id even say thats probably inaccurate, because id say maybe 1 in 3 times, they just double my bet to $40 or $50 or whatever, and I call with low cards. The funniest is KK, cuz if an A comes and they freeze up and then check, you know its KK and you just fire till they fold.
consider:
V1, he is an ABC badreg, Ive seen him raise with 88 and/or AJ (if he does one he prolly does both) I see him limp plenty and fold his limps plenty. he limps for $3, I make it $22. Whats his range? its the top of his capped range. Its literally just trouble hands, low PPs, and some rare SCs. youre looking at hands along the lines of KJ, AT A9 A8 KT QT QJ JT 66 55 44. For the most part their range hits mostly medium made hands, which he will overplay, so basically I bet the flop, he plays fit or fold, and if he hit his pair, if I have air, I bet scare cards and take it away anyway.
V2, worst player at the table, he raises a lot, limps a lot, almost never folds. Guess what, after I blow everyone else out of the hand with my huge raise, im playing a lot with this clown, and im blowing him off his no pairs otf, and then getting 2 or 3 streets from as weak as middle pair when I hit much of anything. Best part is he has nothing but junk in his insanely capped range, so my 100% range is actually likely AHEAD of his.
V3, old man who raises some. He is the absolute best limper, he calls my big raise with 0% of his limping range, and jokes “no sir, that was a $3 hand, not a penny more!” its literally a $3 donation every time he gets in the pot. This dude pays the rake for me.
V4, guy who is actually good (by 1/3 standards), raises tight, limps reasonably tight, may well have noticed you raising the button so often and like limped his aces or some crap, yeah just fold if this guy limps in, or raise small and play normalsauce poker. Only takes one guy to ruin the fun,
So basically all day I play rake free poker in position to either a total clown or a guy who plays face up poker and has a comically narrow capped range. You get to pick your opponent! Dont do it against good people! that one guy who can exploit it already folded!
Beyond that, as far as my previously mentioned obvious tells, tons of 1/3 players give away the worst “looking at chips when they hit” tells and timing tells ever. They play KJ and the flop hits their king, and they dont know what they are supposed to do, they are daydreaming about the waitress and look down and are like oh **** thats my card, look over at their chips, all of a sudden express interest in the poker game they have up to that point been entirely uninterested in, and then look over at me, and are like “oh yeah that guy raised, (and, i mean maybe because I am so over the top with my ranges and betting, the guy will even manage to think “he bets every damn time”), i better check. And of course I check back, save myself a C bet, maybe give myself a draw.
Someone is just gonna have to meet up with me and see it in action haha.
I moved up to 2/5 (and now some 5/10) 6-9 months ago or so, and I dont do this crap at those stakes except for the occasional time it comes up. Like, of course i fold my button plenty, and I probably 4x or 5x mostly, some 3x, but when the occasional opportunity arises when the blinds are passive and multiple fish limped in, Ill pop it for maybe 6x-8x with a 100% range.