my image is of a competent, sometimes aggressive player. i just lost a monster pot. villains are relatively aggressive and are not stations.

1/2 NL - 9 handed

UTG (500)
UTG+1 (500)
Hero CO (500)

Hero is dealt 910.

UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to 10, folds, Hero calls, folds, UTG calls.

Flop (32) 678

UTG bets 8, UTG+1 calls 8, Hero ??

i put UTG on a weak pair/draw and UTG+1 on overs. in general i think this is a good spot to raise with ATC, but with the nuts so deep? maybe it is better off to let them catch up?

I would put in a raise here to get it in, since it is the same line many would take with a OESD. In either case, the turn is a raise so you can "get it in" and set up for a good-sized river bet.

You could conceivably check given the rainbow board, but raise to 24 on the flop would likely be called by both villains given the deep stacks.

Everyone would expect you to flat with the nuts here - that's why I like raising in this spot, especially if you have an aggressive image. If they fold, then you probably weren't going to make a lot on this hand anyway.

If you flat here, the pot is $50 on the turn. If both players go all the way, you have $350 pending in PSB's, not enough to get it all in. So you have to raise somewhere. I think a raise here is probably more deceptive than a raise on the turn, and I think that Tom1975 is correct: if they fold to a smallish raise here, they weren't going to catch up anyways.

I would raise to $20 - $25.

+1

not sure about this argument.. our goal is to maximize value out of the pot, not to bet just in order for us to be able to get it all by the river

One thing no one has mentioned yet is that there are a lotta turn cards that are going to kill your action. I just raise now to start building a pot and hope someone has enough to come along.

Sure, but the two are clearly related, right? I mean, if the board bricks out, we have the absolute nuts. In that case, we clearly want to take a line that allows us the highest EV, which is _probably_ going to coincide with getting all the money in the middle.

It's 1/2 live if someone has so much as a gutshot they are never folding to a raise there. With 2 people in the hand odds are someone has a pair or a gutshot that will call you or they might even try to play back at you with overs.

The thing that sucks about this hand is the bump check from UTG. The freak is betting less than he called PF?!?!?!?! I take it this is not the "aggressive" you describe?

That $8 bet is just messing with my mind here. I assume you are playing in a game with $1 and $5 chips. If the guy was making a quick stab at the pot why bet $8 and not $10... This just stinks of a "please raise me bet".

Raise to $50, when UTG RR and UTG+1 folds, tank for a little bit and call. Expect the villain to ship the turn... snap call anything that does not pair the board. If you RR AI OTF he might get away...

I think u gotta raise here because if either or these guys have a pair+oesd they're gonna call or maybe even reraise, plus if somehow one of them have a big but vulnerable hand (bottom straight, bottom two pair or a set) their are too many turn cards that kill your action or beat u. Although I don't necessarily think u have to raise to $50, in spots like this i find a smaller raise to $30ish will often be interpreted as an information raise with a top pair type of hand and might just get one of them to reraise you here. Also got to agree with Tom1975 if they both fold then they didn't have much because at 1-2 they're not making many big laydowns in these spots.

imho where UTG+1 stands is pretty clear. he is the original aggressor, him just calling on this board is saying i have over cards that missed but i'm getting such a good price, i'll call the 8. i agree UTG's bet could be interpreted either as a "please raise me" or a "please let me see a turn". because i know that both of them are not stations, i'm still not convinced just calling here is bad.

if we estimate that raising will make them fold then obviously that is not the +EV move..

we are in position and they have acted before us.. hoping would be if we just lead out oop but here we have information that we need to analyze.. flopping the nuts vs. two villains, in position, 250BB deep, doesn't happen often.

They still have ranges and we dont know what part of their range they have. Checking does more harm than good imo and will look like the nuts when we raise the turn as well. This is 1/2 live theres no need to over analyze, as long as you dont make a huge raise, people hate folding.

The last part of your post contradicts the rest. If someone has a set or two pair at this level they aren't folding to a RR ever no matter what the board is, and TBH if they had a set and they get 4bet they probably shouldn't fold due to pot odds anyway.

You have to raise to at least attempt to build the pot. It's likely that you're posting this because you did in fact raise and one guy folded A7s and the "overs" guy folded KQ, but this doesn't matter. We want to build the pot here, and tons of stuff will call on the flop, so make it like $30.

Look at it this way, either they have a hand they will continue to funnel money into the pot with, or they are folding to any resistance with some overcards like 2outs pointed out. One way you make money, the other way you don't, and if a 5 rolls off on the turn even 77 or 88 might not pay you off. Put the money in now before a scare card rolls of anywhere.

No, not all. Believe it or not players at 1/2 can fold two pair or an over pair here this deep to a 4bet AI.

I am putting UTG on a set or air here, all though his air could be pretty good cards.

I am putting UTG+1 on over cards or an over pair.

If we raise to $50, UTG RR to say $200 and UTG+1 talks himself into calling the 3bet with his range, if we ship it, UTG calls more times than not with a set, but what hand in the range I have assigned UTG+1 can he call the AI with?

If UTG+1 was described as a station, which he is specifically not, then we might get JJ-AA/AK to ship an AI call, but even then I think there is a higher chance he folds than calls the AI.

Think about it this way, when was the last time you seen a 3 way AI on that texture of a flop for $500 each? I have only seen it a couple times in the last few years, and each time it was set over set versus a straight.

If we ship it to a RR and call, we are folding out UTG+1 the vast majority of the time. When we RR, get 3bet and a call and we call we always see the turn 3 way where UTG+1 might improve and will have the opportunity to call a AI from UTG without our action influencing him, i.e. he is more likely to talk himself into calling the UTG AI if we look weaker than we are because we were hesitant in calling the 3 bet OTF.

Summary, when we 4 bet AI on the flop we fold out everything but sets, when we call a 3 bet and a call, we always have an additional opportunity to stack someone without a set.

yes i agree totally. +2 at this point in the thread however i am sure many people will agree with this.

for a while, whenever i would have flopped the nuts on a board that is not likely to greatly improve my opponents' hands and i chose not to slowplay for the reason stated above and they all folded, i would get pissed and vow to slowplay more often. However, recently i have come to realize that if i bet out into weak opponents and they go out, the odds are that the hand would probably just be checked down anyway and i would try to make a big bet on the river and they would fold. meanwhile, to the one or two observant players at the table, they would know that whenever i had a big hand i would slowplay. of course, if they "know" that, then i could always use it to my advantage but, common, i play 1/2 live- i can barely get past level 1 thinking.

You have to raise here, there is approx 28% chance of a 5/6/9/10 coming on the turn that will kill your action. You just lost a big pot, you can represent tilt, make it 30 total and be prepared to get it in on the flop