Hero - white mid twenties male, tag image, $360

V1 - Indian women just sat down with $100, seems like the type who is aware of general tag strategy but thinks she knows what's going on / thinks she's better than she really is.

V2 - Hispanic male mid 30s, pretty loose / bad $180 ish

Hero dealt A8 in bb,
V1 makes it $5 utg +1... V2 calls in cutoff, one other call on button, hero calls

Flop ($20) - j46
Hero checks, v1 bets $20, v2 tanks and min raises to $40

V1 has another $80 back, v2 has another $150 back
Both seem strong, I don't see either having draws / semi bluffs...but rather just value hands.

I'm ranging v1 on over pairs, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9, and J8 suited type stuff, I think she would slowplay or just bet differently with sets / 2 pair and 2 pair can't realy be in her pfr range anyways.

V2 seems somewhat strong but from physical read standpoint, I really feel like his min raise to 40 is a "see where I'm at" raise that I commonly see mid aged men make with tptk or top pair type hands as well as over pairs.

With all of it's being said my question is do I have enough fold equity to shove ?
Should I just try to flat and reevaluate turn based on odds?
Should I fold? If v2 just calls the 20 Cbet from v1...i think I just call but the min raise to 40 threw me off a bit.

I feel like this all comes down to whether or not I feel that I have fold equity and to what degree. Either way I'd like peoples opinions on this spot and I'm curious if any of you have experienced similar situations to this at 1-2 live games and what you did.

I will post results tomorrow. Thanks.

I'd start with leading the flop. Bet 14 and take it from there. As played, I prefer folding to ripping it

Preflop is fine, I like flatting suited aces multiway. It's a tricky spot on this flop. You don't have much fold equity if you x/r, and it's going to be harder to get stacks in on this board if a 3rd heart does hit. That said, if you call and V1 flats pot will be $100 OTT, so I'm calling if it you think V1 will call behind. If heart hits OTT I'm not sure how to play it without turning your hand face up. Probably x/minraise then open bomb the river

I wouldn't call pre if you get what you wanted otf and still have this many questions and this little information.

I'd fold pre anyway, but especially without a plan.

If V2 flatted what were you going to do?

you have zero fold equity. you are playing for V2's entire 180 stack, and almost getting the right price.

If you are sure that neither one has a flush draw, GII. V1 absolutely doesn't have a flush draw, V2? maybe. maybe something like 45. maybe 57. Either way, with all the dead money, still, GII

You can only 'generate' V2 FE if you get V1 to fold and that's no sure thing.

AP your actions seem like a WAWB spot to me (draw or set) and it comes down to what the others have and their opinion of you.

If you donk out OTF and then shove to a V2 3-bet it looks much stronger to me, but by then I'm not sure how much is in the pot and if V2 can consider folding.

So I think you did play it the best way to create 'any' FE, but I'm not so sure that you shouldn't be donking out here instead ... at least some of the time. GL

V1 overbets the pot. The pot is not $20 on the flop, more like $19 currently. This isn't a big difference right now, but it will change the math enough to pay attention. After expected flop action, a $13-20 bet, followed by at least a call, assuming the rake is only $5(what is the rake here?), the pot will be max-raked at $5. So you can assume his $20 bet into the pre-rake $21 pot(assuming the small blind folded) means he is really betting $20 into $16, with an expected call or raise on the flop. This creates hands V1 wins by everyone outright folding to his bet, too.

Continuing on, in this current spot, I would probably just smooth-call. You have a great hand. If you jam, I feel V2 would call and have you beat, but he may fold. V1 will probably fold unless he has you beat, but you still might have a decent draw. You have the nut draw, but hitting an A on the turn or river is probably not good if someone is calling your all-in. Smoothing allows V1 to hop in and for you to see another card getting over 2:1. If you hit, you check, and action is likely to ensue. I just wouldn't fold here with V2 making such a weak raise. I see jamming as second best, and first to smooth. Smooth-calling gives you just a few more options before you have to jam. Smoothing allows V1 to have the chance to fold, leaving dead money. If V1 jams after you call, V2 follows then I follow too with the nut draw. The turn is just very juicy if you hit, then check.

Also, I'd probably bet the flop too. You can semi-bluff the nut draw in a strong position. It'll narrow your opponents range with a bet like $15. You have the first chance to take down the pot immediately with a current nothing, while also having a nice nut draw.

When V1 overbets that pot, I see that he isn't subtracting the rake when he is adding up the pot, or he most likely wouldn't overbet. That's if V1 is even adding up the pot, or just looking at the pile of chips. This is key, for you can exploit players on the turn and mostly the river if they do not keep track of the pot. Especially when the pot becomes large, and large quickly.

Tough spot. I think fold is correct

Guess I'm in the minority here. I like a jam in this spot. I don't *love* a jam in this spot, but I think it's slightly preferable to the other two options.

I don't like a fold here because, well, we have the nfd with two cards to come. That's a good chunk of equity.

I don't like a call here because our frontdoor flush draw is obvious, and becomes even more obvious when we cold-call the minraise. That hurts our implied odds (against players who are capable of folding once the flush comes in, at least).

The critical question is "what do we make of V2's minraise?" If V2 rarely raises, and only min-raises when he does (a huge mistake, but a common one amongst some 1/2 players), then I like a call here. That's because I'd like V1 to stay in and improve my direct pot odds, and because I expect V2 to make bet-sizing mistakes on the turn. If V2 raises with top pair, is he capable of folding?

If V2 is capable of raising "to find out where he's at," and if he's capable of folding, then I think a raise is best here. Check/raising after the pot has been bet and raised pretty much screams "I have 2 pair+ or the nfd!" 80-90% of the times I take that line, I have a set in my hand. And a set or two pair is easily in your range closing the action as the bb. So it tells a believable story that you're way ahead of their made hands. That won't fold both players every time, but it doesn't need to. It just needs to add some extra equity to the play. If your villains have a fold button, I think it's +EV here.

I do agree to an extent, but checking the flop is what turns your hand face up. Unless you expect one bet and to check-raise them. Betting the flop is the best flop play IMO. Especially if you hit on the turn, then check, with people behind you. I think your hand is face up even if you jam, because V2 is probably not folding. If and probably when he calls, you are probably not ahead. V2 is only folding 2-pair at best. What screws everything up is V1's poor flop bet and this makes V2's raise larger than it should be in comparison to the pot.

To put it very simply, the flop is a fold since V1's bet looks strong, which makes V2's minraise look even stronger. The fact that their actions look strong means there isn't much chance both will fold. Calling feels awkward since effective stacks aren't deep and V1 could just as easily shove.

I dont think jamming is terrible because even against KK we are having a decent equity. we are worried of: JJ, AA, AJos, AJs.

we are pretty good against KK QQ and KQs.

V2 is a sheep, not worried about the minraise at all, its a "find where you at" type of raise... aka bleeding money for us to take.