Ive never played this game, but I dont believe avg stack size is $50.

The second bolded sentence is ridiculous as are other parts of this post. I guess you think its impossible to win at a final table of a tournament (when most people are short stacked compared to the blinds) unless you get AA/KK or hit a set?

This is one of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen.

I would be shocked if someone posted a 1000 hr positive win rate in this game at that rake.

If the rake is $7 every hand then I totally agree. Doesn't change the fact that the above post made 0 sense.

Final table of tournament is different because we actually have fold equity. We only need to raise 2.5x the big blind in order to take down the blinds.

Try raising 2.5x the BB in a Cali 1-2 game and watch yourself get called 9 ways, that is if you don't get jammed on for $33 dollars.

Fair enough. Let me use words instead of math. I was illustrating that in order to execute a "winning" strategy to beat your opponents, you have to wait VERY patiently to play premium hands. We have no Fold Equity, so since they aren't folding, you need a winning hand at showdown. We are losing money while we wait diligently for these winning hands. When we finally do get dealt a hand we can play for stacks with, we will only win $30 dollars from our short-stacked opponent (minus 6 bucks for the rake if the pot is only $60). So our profit is only $24 dollars after rake, while we folded orbit after orbit waiting for a hand to "Get it in good". So at the end of your session, it very well be likely that you made $5 profit in 7 hours of play. And this is if you run at expectation. That's not gonna pay the bills.

Sure we could play more hands, but when we start calling raises with J9, then we are really just "gambling" and playing bingo like the rest of the donks, and really don't have any edge in the game at all.

But, go ahead and prove me wrong playing poker for peanuts. You're the casino's best customer.

Nobody is going to wait for premium hands playing in this game. You just need to have a hand better than theirs more often than they have one better than you. You can get all in with AJ of you know the other guy will do it with A9. You dont need to wait for AA/KK.

Also, if there are so many all ins like you are suggesting (because nobody folds according to your examples), then very quickly there will be plenty of stacks way over $60 as they double up.

I dont where you got the $30 from in the bolded statement. You already said the avg stack was $50...and I think its probably higher.

Me too. I doubt any good player would stay in the game that long

I'll rephrase:

I would be shocked if any player could post a 1000 hr positive win rate in this game with this rake.

pechanga max house drop is $4 for 1/2 40-100 NL. it's a hour 20 minute drive from LA (no traffic) but $4 < $7

would you consider that beatable?

Games which always go to showdown will have more variance. 1000 hours is like 30000 hands. I agree you can be profitable in this game, but we are definitely not talking about 10bb/hr here. It's less. And if it's less, it's easier for variance to have you losing after 1000 hours. Add the fact that someone may not have enough experience to have dealt with this before and it can be demoralizing.

If I were OP, i would study tournaments and short stack strategy. I would also focus on getting a handle on preflop ranges and then adopt a mostly shove/fold pre strategy. Goes without saying you ll be shoving more than AA-KK. And if you can't set mine with pairs, it doesn't mean you can't shove them against inferior ranges.

I think it was simply an attempt at illustrating what a devastating affect rake has on this game.

Git'snotahorriblepost,imoG

GRUNCH: Well for starters, what a terrible attitude you have! Not trying to be mean but ask yourself honestly, do you really feel that you are not lucky? Do you really feel like your hands never hit? If the answer is yes, this is the first thing you need to get over. We are poker players; we don't believe in luck; we believe in variance, and we embrace variance laughing off the spots where villains hit that 2 outer on the river.

Where are you playing these games? Not all 1/2 games are created equal; different parts of the country/world play differently. At your level you really wanna see some obvious droolers in your game in order to help you mitigate the "cost of learning." If you are in a large room, check out tables and try to find the fish. But based on your comments, it sounds like you have a decent amount of fish at your game.

How do you get better? Do these things, all the time, no exceptions:
-BANK ROLL. You cannot win without a roll. Cant afford a roll? Cant afford to play then.
-Never show your cards, and ALWAYS make opponents show first if possible
-ALWAYS follow the action, decide who you think is ahead each round. As you get some practice this will turn into the more "hardcore" ranging you are trying to do. No secret, it just takes time -I expect I always will be working on this myself.
-Dont play tired/stoned/drunk/in a bad mood/with money you cant afford to lose.
-Read Harrington on Cash and Professional No Limit Hold 'em. Then read them again. Then, read them again. SPR will help you in decision making a LOT. In many ways SPR can take thinking completely out of hands, which is fantastic.

Your game is beatable. Like everybody has told you, "Implement a short stack strategy." If followed, plenty of the strategies mentioned in this thread will allow you to be a break-even or slightly winning player despite the rake as long as you cash out every time you triple or quadruple up (basically cash out when your stack gets around $200 once you are no longer short stacked).

If you want to really beat this game, you are going to have to put in the work, stick around, and clobber the other big stacks at the table post flop. With all the short stacked land mines sitting at your table, this will not be an easy task, but anybody with a respectable win rate in your game is cashing out $1,000+ at least once or twice a month. If you are the only big stack at the table, or there is less than twice the hourly rake in chips on the table (not including yours) then never play another hand and go straight to the cashier after you get close to that $200 mark.

In order to improve your post flop play when stacks are big in your game and get you ready for 1/3, I agree with the recommendation of Ed Miller's book Professional No Limit Hold em, but I would read the Theory of Poker first. Every time you read a book, read it twice, and the second time you read it take detailed notes. There are plenty of other great books, but this is all you need to crush up to 1/3.

A much better option would be to save up $6000 while you master those two books and start out at 1/3. Good luck at the tables.

second part of second part is unimportant imo

don't show when you don't have to, but if it's showdown just flip em over. You're giving up nothing because your opponents aren't bright enough to make constructive use of the informationp resented.

The rest I agree entirely with.

My perspective is thus: you gotta be pretty darn naive to think you can just park your ass at a table and get money handed to you. Unless you're actively doing something to faciliatate that money being moved in your direction, it ain't happening.

(though -- HoH was the first book I read, did a lot of good for me, got my brain working the way it needed to to learn at poker, introduced some concepts i was entirely in th edark about -- but looking back it contains a LOT of rubbish. Not sure I would recommend it nowadays, surely there is something better)

also autopiloting on spr is a massive leak, it's helpful but not the be-all-end-all that people make it out to be

I play on the east coast in Atlantic City and I can say that I've never heard of such a game structure. 30BB max???.....I won't even invest my time into it. I would save up that hard earned cash from work, get online, deposit/invest 500-600 into an online poker site and play at the 10nl level. This investment is NOT a way for you to "make a living" at poker but to learn the game more in depth. It taught me theory of poker more so than reading books (Experience is key). I've learned that if I cannot beat the online games or at least break even, I didn't have that much of a shot at winning the live games. Today I crush the 1/2 games and I am well known to do so in the casino I play at with a winrate almost equivalent to my past job - roughly 20-25 an hour. Not to bash you but I don't think you understand this game as well as you think. There is no way you put in that many hours and have such bad luck. I am saying it this way in hopes to get thru to you. I remember once being in your shoes thinking the players around me were just donkeys getting lucky but after playing online I realized I was the donkey. Are you motivated enough to want to truly get better??? Is poker a passion to you or are you a just gambler deep down? If you have the mentality to want to get good, its not good enough(everyone wants to get good)!!!! You need to find that motivation - After an incident online, I wanted to be GREAT and YOU SHOULD TOO!!! when i first got online i played what i thought was good poker, until i lost a certain hand and villian wrote in the comment box "HE HAW". It changed my life when it came to poker, True Story!!!


1.Save up $8000 bankroll just for 1/2
2.In the meantime, Deposit into online poker account and start learning while you save
3.After you reach your savings goal FIND a new location that allows 100bb and play(never buy-in for more than 100bb until you are experienced and crushing)
4.Read all you can read on the forums.
5.Watch lower limit cash games if you can find them (youtube, liveatthebike, etc)
6.Keep track of hours/wins/losses (i use rungood app)
7.Be real with yourself when you start seeing your results. (your first 200 hours will give you a rough idea where you stand in poker)
8.If you're still losing, time to find a new hobby, poker probably isnt for you.

If you go about this I wish you the best of luck on your poker "apprenticeship" lol - This is the hardest part!!! but when said and done, you can finally begin the poker journey.

I think with books (HOC and PNLHE, and anything else for that matter), you simply take what you think is useful for your game and leave what you think is useless (ex. I've *never* used the second hand on my watch to randomize a preflop play). There's enough gems among the garbage to make most books useful enough, especially for someone who looks to be struggling.

And while autopilot is never a good idea, if you're going to do it from time to time (and we all do) then SPR tactics ain't a horrible default. Heck, even if you only use SPR for helping you figure out what you need to bet over multiple streets to get your stack in (and totally ignore the strategy end of things with it), then it's helpful enough.

GimoG

I would strongly suggest that you not play if you are uncomfortable with losing your bank roll.

also just... dude. if someone agree to flip a 55%/45% coin with you over and over, they're losing money, but only 55% of the time. that's how it works.

The thing is, if you only have a $60 stack and there's a $7 flat rake coming off, the guy who gets it in as a 55% fave is *barely* winning. And if those stacks drop much below max BI (which I'm guessing they do as I doubt everyone at the table is topping up after each hand), those 55/45 flips actually become losing plays thanks to the rake.

Gpeopledon'tkillpeople,rakedoesG

totally fair point, the rake at 1/2 can be an absolute killer.