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1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board 1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board

03-06-2014 , 09:17 AM
My reasoning behind the 1/2 Pot / 50BB turn bet were the following:

1. On the flop, the 1/2 Pot bet seemed extremely weak to me, like it was a standard c-bet with broadway cards that completely missed. Maybe he had a draw, maybe he hit top pair, but it just seemed really weak to me.

2. He checked the turn which made me think he was scared of the ace, or that his card that he wanted came, but he still wasn't sure he was good. the 1/2 pot bet on the turn was to make sure I don't show any weakness in response to the caution he presented himself with, to try to make him fold kk or any other pairs or even the ace if he had it because this was one of those boards that are likely to be won by the slightly higher aggressor. Mainly, I just wanted to get more money in on the turn so that I could set up a polarizing river situation.

Essentially, the optimal play here was to be aggressive enough that the other player would fold the same hand.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote
03-06-2014 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkotov100
If a nit who doesn't felt without the nuts shoves on a board like that and you hold KQ off, are you gonna call that down when the best you can do is get a chop or are beating a bluff?
You said the villain would call all-ins without the nuts. You're calling yourself a nit?

So when that ace hit, he put you on pocket rockets, yet insta-called, then folded to your all-in repping the FH. You both played this poorly. You didn't raise in necessary spots and his reads weren't that great.

Yes, I'd make a crying call against you. First I cover you and second I'm not being sold on this story and it doesn't read like good slow play.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:59 AM
3-bet pre for value.

Call the flop, sure.

Why are you betting the turn? That makes zero sense. Just check. If anything, if I see villain obviously "grimace" on the turn, I'm thinking there's a good chance he's acting and I'm beat. Either way, that doesn't matter - checking is much better than betting.

As for villain's line, he made a good fold.

A few things:

I think villain should bet/fold the turn for value. Plenty of value from, say, AT, Jx, etc. He really loses quite a bit of value by checking the turn when he binks the straight, and checking the turn is certainly a costly mistake for him. It also just makes it tougher for him to play the hand, and that's another consideration.

Once he checks the turn and you bet, it is a very difficult spot for villain. You would check behind with a lot of your showdown value hands here, and I'm sure villain is relying on that fact. When you bet, it's not like you're turning Tx or QQ into a bluff (ahem). You also don't have all that much Ax in your range, unless it's like AJ exactly.

Anyway, I think villain's line is bad because he misses value from a ton of hands, but as played, he made a good fold. Your betting range on the turn and river is very nutted and certainly includes JT, KJ, AJ, JJ, TT. Villain made a straight, but you played the hand such that if he's calling the river, it's probably at best to chop against QJ.

What happened here is not that villain spewed - I think his fold is perfect - it's that you spewed, and it worked out for you. That's pretty hard to conceptualize, but it's no different than getting all-in on a turn with 6 outs and then binking on the river.

You weirdly and unintentionally represented a certain range after you call the flop and then bet the turn, and you "sucked out" when you got villain to fold a chop on the river.

Another note, you really shouldn't have many Q's in your range on the river. You're not betting the turn with QT. You just played it real strange, and FYI, your turn bet is neither a value bet nor a bluff, and your river bet is a bluff.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote
03-07-2014 , 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkotov100
My reasoning behind the 1/2 Pot / 50BB turn bet were the following:

1. On the flop, the 1/2 Pot bet seemed extremely weak to me, like it was a standard c-bet with broadway cards that completely missed. Maybe he had a draw, maybe he hit top pair, but it just seemed really weak to me.
i dont really agree with this read but i do agree with the flop call. but where you really spew is on the turn so lets remember this read and look at your turn bet.

Quote:
2. He checked the turn which made me think he was scared of the ace, or that his card that he wanted came, but he still wasn't sure he was good. the 1/2 pot bet on the turn was to make sure I don't show any weakness in response to the caution he presented himself with, to try to make him fold kk or any other pairs or even the ace if he had it because this was one of those boards that are likely to be won by the slightly higher aggressor. Mainly, I just wanted to get more money in on the turn so that I could set up a polarizing river situation.
so you think he likely has a broadway hand otf but now you think he could have kk ott for some reason. anyways lets look at the board: 10 j j ace.

10j you lose to. you are ahead of 10q and k10 which probably fold to your bet and you are behind a10 as well. any jack you lose to. kq you lose to and any ace you lose to. kk he might call and might fold we arent sure. so you are betting for value against two hands which cant possibly call you are bluffing against one unlikely holding which may or may not call and you are value cutting yourself against everything else... which is what ended up happening.

also it seems like your reads are a little less than rock solid vs this opponent given that he shows up with a monster here.

Quote:
Essentially, the optimal play here was to be aggressive enough that the other player would fold the same hand.
i could see how you came to this conclusion given the outcome but its 100% results oriented. you had 4 outs to win this hand and 2 of them you cant possibly get called when you shove otr. you had 3 outs to chop which you were fortunate enough to hit. if you hadnt hit the king on the river and followed through on your plan to make villain fold (mostly weaker hands fwiw) then you would have gotten stacked. as played even though you hit one of your miracle cards you are still clearly getting no value otr because look at what villain folded. its great you got a fold from the one possible holding you want to get a fold from but it goes to show just how lucky you were otr and just how awful your turn bet was.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote
03-07-2014 , 11:17 AM
grunch (kind of... i guess we have all results): re-raise pre. i think flop is ok if you're going into call-down mode and trying to keep his low-value hands and bluffs in. not sure about the lead-out on turn but i guess it worked out since you made him believe you had a boat. surprised he folded after calling that turn.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote
03-07-2014 , 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkotov100
Mainly I wanted to disguise my QQ preflop because I had not yet 3-bet that entire session because I didn't get an opportunity to do so. If I 3-bet the Queens here, I am most likely getting a fold all around because the table has not seen me display that level of strength all night. I wanted to disguise my high value hand on flops exactly like the one that came out so that I could maximize showdown value from calling on the flop.

I wasn't ready to call a 4-bet with queens, and if an overcard of either K or Ace came out (as it would over 43% of the time, then I'd have to fold to any aggression post flop since it would hit a wide range of his if he flatted that 3-bet).
Highly doubt anyone even notices you didn't 3bet during the session you are losing out on value lag gambler guy will call their 3bet calling ranges are most likely wider than you think.
1-2 NLHE Foxwoods: QQ in Cutoff vs. Solid Lag/Tag on crazy board Quote

      
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