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Old 03-10-2014, 01:33 PM   #1
Hollywade
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1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

I'm usually folding in this spot. However, there were some dynamics at play that pushed me toward calling.

This is early on a Saturday morning at a table that has been running through the night. There is a lot of money on the table and a lot of action.

MP in this hand is an action junkie. He doesn't get crazy with 3-betting preflop, but he's always putting money in the pot and not afraid to stack off with marginal hands. Within the past orbit, I doubled through him when he called a preflop raise to 11 and then both of them called my 3-bet to 60 (I had KK) from the blinds. I shoved 168 (into ~180) on a 6-5-3 flop and he called. Turn and river were J-4 and he mucked.

I felt there was enough money in play and enough bad players involved that it was worth taking a shot at flopping a big hand, feeling confident that the preflop raiser would pay me off. Of course, what happened instead is that I flopped a good but not great hand, and got involved OOP with no initiative against a different opponent than the one I was targeting.

With that in mind, here we go...

Villain in this hand is MP from another hand I posted:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...check-1424107/

Asian woman in mid 30s; clearly comfortable at the table, huge stack, active but not crazy.

I have ~500; Villain has ~1,500.

UTG limps, MP raises to 15, HJ calls, CO calls, I call in SB with KQ, BB folds, UTG calls.
Flop (77): 3-3-K, rainbow
I check, UTG checks, MP checks, HJ bets 50, CO folds, I call, UTG folds, MP folds.
Turn (177): 6
I check, HJ bets 50, I call.
River (277): J
I (375 behind)...?

Thoughts?
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:35 PM   #2
99s
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

b/f $90
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:10 PM   #3
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

C/C. You called all the way down. Unless he does a huge bet. Sure he may have you dominated but the smallish turn bet suggests his hand isn't that strong.

I really don't think the river changes much. Since you called this far and think he can put more money in call his smallish river bet or get the showdown.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:14 PM   #4
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

C/f river unless bet is very small.

The J is a bad card bc it improved a value hand you were ahead of. There are no bluffs here in Vs range. KT is essentially the only hand you beat. A small blocking bet may be ok if it keeps V from betting you off a chop with the same hand.

Did you consider a 3-bet from the SB? There was a million post thread started by APD about playing KQs from the SB, though. I don't really want to start that discussion again.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:22 PM   #5
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Originally Posted by fatmanonguitar View Post
The J is a bad card bc it improved a value hand you were ahead of. There are no bluffs here in Vs range. KT is essentially the only hand you beat. A small blocking bet may be ok if it keeps V from betting you off a chop with the same hand.
Agree. I really didn't like the jack. KJ seemed like a strong possibility.

Quote:
Did you consider a 3-bet from the SB? There was a million post thread started by APD about playing KQs from the SB, though. I don't really want to start that discussion again.
I did not consider that.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:25 PM   #6
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Originally Posted by futbolistagringo View Post
I really don't think the river changes much. Since you called this far and think he can put more money in call his smallish river bet or get the showdown.
I did perceive the "same bet" nonsense as a novice mistake indicating weakness. However, it could also be possible that she's trying to squeeze value out of me with AK and just isn't very good at it.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:29 PM   #7
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Semi-grunch: I would sooner fold the flop than call 3 barrels. This villain called preflop, so this is not a c-bet that could be air. We might be good on the flop but we have RIO. I think the turn might be a fold. Villain does not care that we might be slowplaying a 3. She bet anyway.

I'm in the check/fold river camp.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:31 PM   #8
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

I feel good about checking that particular river card. I'm not thrilled that I got myself into such a huge pot OOP and basically forced myself to guess where I stood in the hand. All in all, I'm fine with how I played it I guess.

However, if it's a different river card, I think I like betting something like 125 and folding to a raise (unless the river is a 3 or king). Anybody like that line? It's possible that I'm being results-oriented.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:33 PM   #9
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Semi-grunch: I would sooner fold the flop than call 3 barrels.
I agree, and if that third barrel comes, I'm going to be very frustrated with myself.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:53 PM   #10
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Bet fold ~100, what were the results?
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:55 PM   #11
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

I gotta feel bet/folding here will just fold out most if not all worse, and def only get called by better.

River feels more like a ck/fold or ck/cl depending on how we feel about V's tendencies to go for thin value with KT- type hands, QQ/TT.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:00 PM   #12
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Calling pre from SB is incredibly standard and perfectly +EV in this situation.

It's going to be a 4- or 5-way pot. You're being super results oriented. You have a raise and 3 callers, you have KQs, and you're 250BB deep.

You played the hand fine. Call flop, call weak turn bet, and go to the river.

Now c/decide river based on bet sizing. Mostly check/fold to any reasonable bet, but if villain puts in something like another same bet of $50, you call it.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:08 PM   #13
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Is check-raising the flop just spew? We wind up putting in $100 when we c/c the flop and turn. What if we just put in $150 on the flop and represent the 3 with the intention of just shutting it down if called.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:21 PM   #14
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
Calling pre from SB is incredibly standard and perfectly +EV in this situation.

It's going to be a 4- or 5-way pot. You're being super results oriented. You have a raise and 3 callers, you have KQs, and you're 250BB deep.

You played the hand fine. Call flop, call weak turn bet, and go to the river.

Now c/decide river based on bet sizing. Mostly check/fold to any reasonable bet, but if villain puts in something like another same bet of $50, you call it.
+1 with everything said...
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:50 PM   #15
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Result:

I checked, HJ checked and showed KQo for a split pot.

She asked me if I would have called $200 on the river.

"No."

I guess the standard response should be "I don't know."
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:24 PM   #16
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Villain's bet on the turn essentially turns her hand face up as a King or some other 2 pair hand with showdown value. Given that, I'm probably raising turn. A raise would be a bluff vs AK but a raise to protect our hand vs other Kx hands. I just don't think we are likely to get much value on the river regardless of what comes out. If we had a hand like K9 that has little showdown value then I think a raise would be pretty much mandatory here. With AK, I'm just calling and leading most rivers for value.

Anyways, I think you played this hand fine.

If someone asks if I would have called $x on the river I just tell them "No, I would have re-raised All-in"
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #17
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Villain's bet on the turn essentially turns her hand face up as a King or some other 2 pair hand with showdown value. Given that, I'm probably raising turn. A raise would be a bluff vs AK but a raise to protect our hand vs other Kx hands. I just don't think we are likely to get much value on the river regardless of what comes out. If we had a hand like K9 that has little showdown value then I think a raise would be pretty much mandatory here. With AK, I'm just calling and leading most rivers for value.
I hadn't thought of check/raising the turn. I was just relieved that she went with the ever-popular "same bet," giving me a chance to see the river for cheap.

I agree that "same bet" tends not to be very strong, and I think a check/raise could be very effective against it, in some ways using the opponent's positional advantage against them. Of course, it could be a disaster against AK, but I have to like my chances otherwise, and picking up the $227 pot uncontested is a big win too.
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:41 PM   #18
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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I hadn't thought of check/raising the turn. I was just relieved that she went with the ever-popular "same bet," giving me a chance to see the river for cheap.

I agree that "same bet" tends not to be very strong, and I think a check/raise could be very effective against it, in some ways using the opponent's positional advantage against them. Of course, it could be a disaster against AK, but I have to like my chances otherwise, and picking up the $227 pot uncontested is a big win too.
I wouldn't check with the intentions of raising, but once she bets $50 her hand is face up.

We are essentially targeting AK. So if we raise the turn we need to make it large and essentially turn our hand face-up as a 3. When fish bet the same bet like this it is more of a feeler bet than anything. She wants to know where she is in the hand so we'll let her know that she should fold. If you don't think she can fold AK here then a call is more appropriate but this type of villain should be able to fold. Our line makes a lot of sense. Even if she calls, she won't be able to value bet the river.
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:48 PM   #19
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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I wouldn't check with the intentions of raising, but once she bets $50 her hand is face up.
Right. We're not sure where we stand on the flop, but her turn action gives us useful information.

Quote:
We are essentially targeting AK. So if we raise the turn we need to make it large and essentially turn our hand face-up as a 3. When fish bet the same bet like this it is more of a feeler bet than anything. She wants to know where she is in the hand so we'll let her know that she should fold. If you don't think she can fold AK here then a call is more appropriate but this type of villain should be able to fold. Our line makes a lot of sense. Even if she calls, she won't be able to value bet the river.
This is the key question. I'm not sure whether I would have been confident that I could get her off AK. I've yet to establish whether she has a huge stack because she's constantly gambling it up, or if that big stack is now scared money on lockdown.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:43 PM   #20
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Originally Posted by GrindPokerAllDay View Post
Villain's bet on the turn essentially turns her hand face up as a King or some other 2 pair hand with showdown value. Given that, I'm probably raising turn. A raise would be a bluff vs AK but a raise to protect our hand vs other Kx hands. I just don't think we are likely to get much value on the river regardless of what comes out. If we had a hand like K9 that has little showdown value then I think a raise would be pretty much mandatory here. With AK, I'm just calling and leading most rivers for value.

Anyways, I think you played this hand fine.

If someone asks if I would have called $x on the river I just tell them "No, I would have re-raised All-in"
Trying to bluff a LLSNL player off TPTK is not a good idea. Especially this TPTK on this board.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:50 PM   #21
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Trying to bluff a LLSNL player off TPTK is not a good idea. Especially this TPTK on this board.
I would tend to agree.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:01 PM   #22
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You didn't flop big, so fold is the play here

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Old 03-12-2014, 05:47 PM   #23
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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You didn't flop big, so fold is the play here

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Fold the flop?
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:07 PM   #24
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

Just wait for the bet size and call if the pot odds dictate. You're allowed to pay off sometimes at showdown if they make the "correct" bet size.
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:25 PM   #25
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Re: 1-2 NL: This is why we don't cold call KQ in the blinds

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Originally Posted by Hollywade View Post
Agree. I really didn't like the jack. KJ seemed like a strong possibility.
If KJ is a strong possibility then that makes it profitable to call with KQ from the blinds. If KJ is a raising but not calling hand than KQs is surely a calling hand. Further, maintaining the bet of $50 on the flop and turn is a sign of weakness IMO. You may have even been able to take it down there with a raise since she thought she had a decent hand but not a big-pot hand.
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