Just looking for some feedback/line check on the more typical hands people are probably exposed to. Overrepped, underrepped or played just right?

Hand 1:

Hero is new to table. Effective stacks of $200. Hero observed V limp KQss UTG in the previous orbit. UTG limps, V limps UTG+2, 2 more limps in LP. Hero checks from the BB with AT.

Pot: $10

Flop: 8 A 4

Hero checks
UTG checks
V bets $7
CO, BTN fold
Hero calls $7
UTG calls $7

Ranging him on any pair here, including small-mid PP's.

Pot: ~$30

Turn: 2

Hero checks
UTG checks
V bets $20
Hero calls $20
UTG folds

Pot: ~$70

Ranging him on decent Aces, some small Axss, and maybe 8x, 99, TT. Doubt he's bluffing with little/no equity.

River: 6

Hero checks
V bets $20
Hero calls $20 getting 4.5:1 odds

Thoughts? Is this a standard line from the BB? His turn bet sizing seemed kind of strong, which in turn makes his river bet sizing incredibly weak. I don't think he was going for a small value bet but I doubt I would have called much more than $20 here. I am hoping to see A9s, A7s, A5s but it seems just as likely to run into AQ or AJ based on his previous limp of KQs. Still, I feel like we are never folding getting 4.5:1 here correct?

Hand 2:

Hero recently changed tables. My major read on V is that he appears to overvalue top pair. I saw him b/b/b TPGK and lose to 2-pair earlier. Effective stacks of $200.

Hero opens UTG+1 to $12 with AQ
One nondescript player in LP calls $12
V calls $12 in SB

Pot: ~$35

Flop: A T 7

V checks
Hero bets $25
LP folds
SB calls $25

Ranging V on a variety of aces, though big Aces (AQ-AJ) seem unlikely, club draws, Tx, 98, 86cc

Pot: ~$85

Turn: 9

SB checks
Hero checks

Not the best card, though only the 86 would have made a straight here and if he has a straight, I think he would lead. Still - I have become more hesitant of betting the turn after being c/c on the flop on these wet flops that hit two pair, straight or set type calling out of the blind hands.

Pot: ~$85

River: K

V bets $15
Hero calls $15

Thoughts? Is this turn a b/f for value or a standard b/c/b two-streets of value type hand? His river bet seems to be afraid of the flush, and I don't think he is savvy enough to bet small to induce with a monster, but I feel like turning my hand into a bluff here is a waste of a value hand and this move would be better suited for a busted OESD type hand when the flush hits on the river.

Results

That's a crappy runout on hand 1. More Ax hands beat you now. As played, I guess calling the river is ok for so cheap. Though, if you were gonna put $60 in this hand, just do it with a check-raise on the flop.

Hand 2. A mess from the beginning. When you pick up this hand in that position, being only 100 BB's deep, you need to decide if you're willing to play top-pair for stacks. If not, fold the hand pre-flop. If you are, then raise bigger pre-flop. Like 18. You'll probably take it down right there way more often than you might like, but so what. It beats playing a one-pair hand out of position with really awkward stack-to-pot ratios.

Hand 1 is shrug, make a read and go with it. I could fold turn or river but I wouldn't fold all the time. On the turn your hand is a bit too good to auto give up to a second bet and on the river he is giving you great odds even though your beat here most of the time.

Hand 2 is another OK but you probably lose more then win situation. At most 1/2 tables I would raise more in EP, flop bet is obvious. Turn complicated by stack sizes but I would rather bet then check. The 9 is more likely to give villain a pair+draw then complete a draw. River is a crying call, your almost never winning but your hand is too good to fold to the trivial bet.

grunch

Hand 1:

Fine with checking from the BB, but raising is also fine and might thin the field.

Flop: Why are you ranging him on any pair? Would he bet here with T9? 67? I have no idea, but you need to think deeper about what hands he could have. Would he limp with small suited cards and bet this flop with 23s, 35s? Do you think he'd limp low offsuit aces or raise them? These are the kinds of questions you need to ask. You offer no justification for your range.

Turn: 35 just got there. Are you considering this? Also, what kinds of sizings have you seen in past hands? This information needs to factor into your decision - maybe he's a drooler who doesn't know to value bet with a straight. Maybe he reads your x/c/x as weak (I probably would, you're playing this as passively as you could).

Call is fine, but you need to think more about why.

River: "His turn bet sizing seemed kind of strong, which in turn makes his river bet sizing incredibly weak." Again, you give no reads so I can't comment on specifics, but there are sooooo many other reasons he'd be betting this much. You're giving him way too much credit. Maybe he has two pair but gets MUBsy about sets. Maybe he has AK. Paying attention to your opponents will answer these questions.

The call is totally fine, but you need to be betting with top pair or you're losing tons of value. After your passive-as-hell play, I wouldn't be surprised to see V look you up with T8 when you lead for 40-50.

Hand 2:

"My major read on V is that he appears to overvalue top pair. I saw him b/b/b TPGK and lose to 2-pair earlier." Just because they lost that specific hand doesn't necessarily mean they overvalue top pair. It could mean they know how to value bet. b/b/b line with top pair is totally standard, depending on the board.

Preflop: standard, fine.

Flop: I'm glad you decided to bet. You can bet bigger. You have TPGK - you should be committed. Is V calling 25 but folding to 35 with AJ or a good flush draw? Hell no!

Turn: This check is unbelievably MUBSy. You're committed! Bet so you can shove on the river! If you get raised you can fold, but for now, get value. You also need to deny flush draws odds. Bet 60-70 here and get ready to shove.

River: Slow down when the club comes. With a bet that small you have to call. Call, expecting to lose to flushes often.

Summary: Examine your thought process for contradictions. You seem to be pulling ranges out of thin air. This isn't necessary - think of ALL hands V might have and how they'll play them.

Hand one is fine to me, but I'm surprised you didn't raise pre to thin the field, etc.

Hand two I would have bet the turn -- not sure why you checked because not much has changed and we want to charge his draws. As played, river call was fine.

Hand 1 is a sigh-call on the river. I like your check-call on the flop and turn. River can easily be a halfhearted bluff on his part. If he made 2 pair, I expect he'd blast this river.

Hand 2, your turn decision has me mystified. You're the preflop aggressor. Most players would 3! with AK. You're ahead of all Ax hands except A10 and A7, and the 9d is basically a blank. V usually either has Ax or a club draw/combo draw. Bet/fold $65 on the turn for value, and to charge his drawing hands. Then you should check/evaluate the river.

When you guys raise AQ to 15 in EP who on this earth is paying the rake And allowing you to make a profit from them?

I don't mind seeing a flop with 4-6 opponents since the chance they out flop me is about 5% each. Let them pay the rake and jackpot. I'm trying to make some money. Having them fold out the weaker parts of their preflop calling range seems like a real shame.

A kid who is an actual beast has quickly risen through the ranks at my local casino. He actually knows how to play, it isn't a fluke. When he was playing 1/2 he would frequently build pots preflop and take them down post flop since the regs have terrible frequencies. They play soooo many hands pre and then play fit or fold after the flop. Maybe it is just a Coral Springs/Boca Raton group think but I have noticed the same from even short stacked players all over the rest of south florida.

I am new to the table, this is my second orbit, so I'm not trying to raise out of the blinds yet without better reads.

I am ranging him on any pair because of the only other two hands I've seen him play. Where he limped KQss and b/b/b pair of Kings and I forgot to mention, he limped 44 in MP a few hands earlier, flopped a set and b/b/shoved river after rivering quads. So my read is based off an extremely limited sample size that he bets his pairs and plays a strong range, but is gunshy about raising preflop.

No, I am not considering these low suited-gapper hands because he is in EP and my read is he wouldn't play them (based off only limping KQss UTG and limping 44 in MP). My read is he is aware of position and hand strength but doesn't like to raise pre.

I have been at the table for less than two orbits, I have limited knowledge of his betting habits except for the aforementioned two hands where he appears to value bet. He's had TPGK and set/quads so it's hard to say what his bet sizing is with weaker hands, draws or bluffs.

Why do we *HAVE* to be betting here? Flop is pretty dry and I've checked my blind and c/c the flop. I am keeping my range as wide as possible while attempting to use my relative position to get info on V and see how he defines his range on the turn. Since I don't think he is the type to limp 53s, the 2 OTT doesn't scare me aside from a few combos of A2s he might limp with, though I also don't think he would limp them in EP.

So now my range on him is starting to narrow to stronger Aces (AK-AJ), two pair aces (A8s) and some 66, 77, 8x, 99 combos. I realize that I am probably not winning this hand all that often, but with solid showdown value I want to keep this pot as small as possible and ensure I get to see V's cards, which I think is an underrated but highly relevant piece of information to further refine reads.

That's my read. You have to start somewhere. I recently table changed and have seen V play one hand so ... that's what I am going off of. I would disagree that b/b/b with one pair is standard when the typical winning hand at showdown is 2-pair. B/b/b with one pair certainly has it's place, but it's not my default line absent reads.

I don't routinely pot the flop. I also don't think your average rec player is routinely calling PSB on a flush draw. I am trying to keep worse hands in here while also giving improper odds and not overrepping my hand when I am not fully committed.

Maybe. Thought about b/f $70 but b/f, in my opinion, it would be a mistake having put in >50% of my stack. My thinking after he c/c flop was to go for 2 streets of value, betting most rivers if checked to.

I disagree. I create ranges based on the information I have at hand. Until I have reason to think otherwise, every player is put in the "average" bucket, meaning I don't think they are a complete drooler, nor do I think they are value betting thin, aggressively attacking weakness, etc. I think your ranges were way too wide (limping 53s in EP?) but that's just my opinion.

Haha you joker!

Yah this one I went back and forth on. It was probably a mistake but I wasn't thrilled with b/f here having put in >40% of my stack. I think I actually had two green's ($50) in my hand but he just felt a little strong to me and I couldn't range him on too many draws other than naked flush draws.

Darn it! Just put a reply to not raising pre because you were new to the table then saw this and had to delete it! I'm playing nice.

Hand 2:
You gotta bet that turn. You are just giving up piles of value. The 9 is not a card to be scared of. If you bet and get raised, then you can safely muck it if he's your standard passive and call if he is aggro with bigger draws. There are all kinds of combo draws that can call you though as well as AJ. Lost money there. On a drawy board, you should be going for flop and turn value > flop and river value. DUCY?

In hindsight, I see now not b/f the turn was a mistake. $65 feels a little strong heads-up with a vulnerable hand. Don't you think $50 accomplishes the same thing? $50 gives him 2.7:1 odds if drawing to the flush while leaving me having put in 44% of effective stacks. Or is the point that if we are 100% sure we are b/f this than pot commitment doesn't matter and we should get max value while we still can?

IDCY - bricked draws aren't calling a river bet. Lost value on my part. Grrr.

Totally fine.

Much better description. Small sample size, but I understand your justification.

Works for me.

I agree that you have limited knowledge of betting habits this early. But I think betting with TPGK is standard, and if it isn't, you're losing value.

When I see a player x/c x/c x/c AT on this board I label them as a standard passive fish. You have MUBS. I would bet like V with a 9, when you show me AT I chuckle inside at how much value you're losing. (edit: I got the hands confused, changed to AT).

Why do you need to keep your range as wide as possible? You have a decent hand. You can get value from worse.

I think you're underestimating your showdown value. Many rec players will limp any ace from any position. I'm not saying it's good, but you just don't know at this point. You're giving him a LOT of credit after a small flop c-bet. $7 into $10? I might make this bet with any two cards.

All V did was limp in EP. That's a pretty wide range for your average rec player.

I'm not saying you should do it all the time, but a bet earlier in the hand will allow you to make a reasonable river value bet. This goes a long way.

Whoa now. Rec players call PSB with flush draws ALL THE TIME. It's a defining characteristic. They loooove chasing and trying to hit.

You're seriously missing value if you don't bet here. If you don't bet this hand, what do you bet? Only 2pair+? That's classic passive player thinking. You can definitely get value with a bet.

I didn't say he would limp 53s in EP, but rec players will often do things like that and you gave me no justification for your thinking (in this post, you clarified).

My main point: If you're not value betting AQ on this turn you're missing tons of value. Seriously. This will make a HUGE difference in your winrate.

edit: I got the hands confused a couple times, sorry. Tried to fix them

I like $65 instead of $50 here because the board has gotten tempting for a lot of draws. The 9 doesn't complete many draws, but it does create a bunch of them. Any 8 is now open-ended, lots of club draws just picked up extra outs, and lots of middle pair suited-connectors just picked up outs as well.

My plan is usually to charge heavily on the turn, then check-call most rivers (even bricked rivers, to induce bluffs). That's villain-dependent though, obviously.

Grunch.

Neither hand is standard IMO. You are playing too passively. Lead flop and turn in hand one. Definitely bet turn in hand two.

I'd have raised pre hand 1 somewhat big, like $18. Aiming either to take all the limps right there or make it heads up.

If you checked then lead out on the flop for $15. You can fold to a raise. But there are tons of worse Ax to get value from (and we expect better Ax would have raised preflop at least some of the time)

Hand 2 just go with your read and b/b/b

Grunch

Interesting hands because they're fairly common spots I run into so I'm glad you posted this. I'm wondering if I'll discover any leaks in my game.

Hand 1: My standard play here is to bet the flop. It sucks being OOP but we probably have the best hand and will often either get folds or get called by worse aces and lower pairs. Sure AJ and AQ might call but occasionally they will raise and we can fold. If we have the best hand then I don't think it's a good result when it gets checked around, which will occasionally happen on such a dry board.

As played, you have clearly underrepresented your hand so I'd be tempted to call down.

Hand 2: Most opponents are pretty straightforward so I think the turn is an easy b/f.

Hand 1:

This read actually makes the flop a fold, because he could easily have AK/AQ/AJ now and have you in big trouble. However, since you say he plays a strong range, it seems unlikely that he will ever have one pair hands that you beat, plus you have RIO problems. It's different if your read is that he can't have you outkicked because he would have raised, or that he plays a wide range preflop and limps all of it, then gets married to all his one pair hands. But with the read you have, I'd probably fold the flop.

Good analysis. I contemplated folding the turn but figured I had too much showdown value to not get there cheaply (and I wanted the added information of his cards). Do you ever call down in cheap-ish pots like this for the info when you are probably beat or is that too big of a leak?

Results

I have a habit of playing the BB pretty passively when I flop well like this, unless it's a wet board. To be honest, when I saw this flop, I thought I had the best hand (aside from any sets that may have spiked).

I was planning to bet the turn if it checked through on the flop. I often take this line because I feel like it allows me to get looked up by weaker aces and pairs worse than Aces. "Since BB checked the flop and bet the turn he can't have an Ace right?" That line of thinking.

But the way this V has been playing, I wonder if he would have even raised at any point in the hand. I think he may just call me down. So I would probably bet the flop, check the turn and reassess based on the action he takes.

Fun hand to play because it was cheap and my read was that he could easily have AK-AJ here. Opening this up to anyone, is there any way to get V off AK here? C/R at some point? Or just fold/get to cheap showdown and move on?

Folding turn in hand 1, if he is limping KQs, he is probably not betting turn without an ace, he is also more likely to have two pair or a stronger ace than you

Betting turn in hand 2, 9 does not change much, need to charge draws and get value

If I am actually unsure, then I might sometimes call down. However, if I had your reads, I would fold the flop because you already gave me all the information I need to know it's a fold.

That is ridiculously disciplined. Do you have no problem folding here because even if you do happen to fold the best hand it's a minuscule -EV mistake that it's not even worth the potential headache?

Gotta imagine that weak aces are also betting. I think flop is a call but the turn is where to let it go imo. You're just not good.

Hand 2 is just lol bad from the villain.

That is not why I'm folding. I'm folding because it's probably -EV to call.

Look, here's the problem on the flop. You have given me enough information to know that AK/AQ/AJ are ALL in Villain's range. That's 24 combos. Now in order for not folding the flop to be the best play, we need one of these things to be true:

1) We are good over 50% of the time against the range of hands that Villain will 3-barrel with.

2) We have so much equity against Villain's range on the flop that even when he stops betting with hands that beat us, we are beat so seldom that calling down is still +EV.

3) We have a clear read that all or most of Villain's turn betting range beats us, AND his flop betting range is behind our hand as a whole.

All of these conditions are about RIO, by the way. Anyway, some people in this thread seem to think that #3 is true, and if you buy that, you should call flop and fold turn. Personally I believe that your reads contradict #3, because we're probably behind his flop betting range. AK/AQ/AJ is 24 combos. To be ahead of Villain's range we need to find 24 combos of hands he would limp with and then bet the flop with that we beat.