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1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? 1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold?

04-05-2018 , 03:38 PM
Effective stack: $150

Table is on the tighter side, lots of people on their phones when they aren't in a hand, not much money on the table either. Main V (sb), is a middle aged guy who has been playing tight. With the table being tighter I am playing a little looser than I normally do.

Preflop:
I open in utg with KQ to table standard $10, hj and sb both call. ($32 in pot)

Flop: K78
SB checks, I bet $20, hj folds, sb calls. ($72 in pot)

Turn: J
SB checks, I bet $25, sb calls. ($122 in pot)

River: 2
SB jams $75 ish, I ??

Thoughts:
After reviewing this hand I do not like my sizing on the turn. I need to size up and bet closer to $50-$55. By doing this I should fold out his club and straight draws. AP, the river is a great card for him to jam here and I think this is a tough spot but is probably a fold.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShakeDaddy
Effective stack: $150

Table is on the tighter side, lots of people on their phones when they aren't in a hand, not much money on the table either. Main V (sb), is a middle aged guy who has been playing tight. With the table being tighter I am playing a little looser than I normally do.

Preflop:
I open in utg with KQ to table standard $10, hj and sb both call. ($32 in pot)

Flop: K78
SB checks, I bet $20, hj folds, sb calls. ($72 in pot)

Turn: J
SB checks, I bet $25, sb calls. ($122 in pot)

River: 2
SB jams $75 ish, I ??

Thoughts:
After reviewing this hand I do not like my sizing on the turn. I need to size up and bet closer to $50-$55. By doing this I should fold out his club and straight draws. AP, the river is a great card for him to jam here and I think this is a tough spot but is probably a fold.
Most def agree with bolded. You gave immediate odds to flush draw there. Given SB only had $100 behind at that point, I probably shove turn.

AP, I think you need to fold to a tight player. Too many ways you are beaten.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 04:08 PM
SB has 100 behind with 75 in pot, shove turn.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 04:24 PM
Just ship the turn. AP, I probably fold river.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 04:30 PM
Pot the flop, jam the turn. EZ game.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 04:30 PM
If shoving turn folds out draws, what do we get called by? Are we expecting a tight guy at a tight table to call an overbet allin vs an UTG range with KT or worse?

I actually like the turn sizing, assuming we have a plan for when we get shoved on.

In game i probably check back turn, and hopefully catch some bluffs on the river.

AP, easy fold.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
If shoving turn folds out draws, what do we get called by? Are we expecting a tight guy at a tight table to call an overbet allin vs an UTG range with KT or worse?

I actually like the turn sizing, assuming we have a plan for when we get shoved on.

In game i probably check back turn, and hopefully catch some bluffs on the river.

AP, easy fold.
I really like your line here of checking the turn, especially with the V stack size being around 100 on the turn.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 07:32 PM
$30 flop/shove turn
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-05-2018 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
If shoving turn folds out draws, what do we get called by? Are we expecting a tight guy at a tight table to call an overbet allin vs an UTG range with KT or worse?

I actually like the turn sizing, assuming we have a plan for when we get shoved on.

In game i probably check back turn, and hopefully catch some bluffs on the river.

AP, easy fold.
We dont have to get called to make a bet good. We make far more money folding out his draws amd winning the current pot 100% of the time than giving him a free card or offering him good drawing odds. If his range is draw heavy, which I think it is here, we absolutely need to size up the turn.

As played this is a fold. KQ is a bluff catcher and I dont see many hands in his range that get to the river this way then bluff.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 03:15 AM
Shoving turn is completely fine. You can't just assume that anything K10 or worse isn't calling based on him being "tight". Remember we are playing live poker here. It's easy to make assumptions about players based on a really small sample size. This is a common mistake I see in live poker. We see players make a lot more decisions pre flop than post flop. Post flop decisions are so much more complex than pre flop that we can't assume villain will be equally as tight post flop. I think denying equity is important on the turn. Fold river
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss;53667213[B
]We dont have to get called to make a bet good. [/B]We make far more money folding out his draws amd winning the current pot 100% of the time than giving him a free card or offering him good drawing odds. If his range is draw heavy, which I think it is here, we absolutely need to size up the turn.

...
What you are describing is called a bluff. Imo we have too much showdownvalue to turn this hand into a bluff, but more importantly, V is unlikely to fold a better hand. You are getting him to fold hands that have <30% equity with 1 card to come, and only getting called by hands that have >80% equity. Not to mention that we are risking more than the pot to do so. I highly doubt that is a play that makes money.

V can easily have T9s/77/88/78s/KJs/AK and play it this way. That's 23 possible combo's that have us in jail. Given V's description/preflop tightness, it's highly unlikely he even has half that amount of drawing combo's in his range.

Imo by shoving turn, we are gonna valueown ourselves way more often than we are folding out equity.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
What you are describing is called a bluff. Imo we have too much showdownvalue to turn this hand into a bluff, but more importantly, V is unlikely to fold a better hand. You are getting him to fold hands that have <30% equity with 1 card to come, and only getting called by hands that have >80% equity. Not to mention that we are risking more than the pot to do so. I highly doubt that is a play that makes money.

V can easily have T9s/77/88/78s/KJs/AK and play it this way. That's 23 possible combo's that have us in jail. Given V's description/preflop tightness, it's highly unlikely he even has half that amount of drawing combo's in his range.

Imo by shoving turn, we are gonna valueown ourselves way more often than we are folding out equity.
No, it's not - it's correctly value betting to price out his draws and deny V his equity. If he calls getting a terrible price to draw, great. If he folds and forfeits his 25-30% equity, great.

We're not bluffing because we're not trying to get a better made hand to fold.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 11:05 AM
When the pot size is larger than the remaining $$ in V's stack, it becomes more important to win the pot than worry about getting the rest. That is why shoving the turn is the correct play.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 01:14 PM
Either check the turn for pot control or jam because you are playing to short to fold top pair on a wet board. The first strat is low variance. The second is high variance. This is a BR decision. GL
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25
If shoving turn folds out draws, what do we get called by? Are we expecting a tight guy at a tight table to call an overbet allin vs an UTG range with KT or worse?

I actually like the turn sizing, assuming we have a plan for when we get shoved on.

In game i probably check back turn, and hopefully catch some bluffs on the river.

AP, easy fold.
People will make bad calls with draws. Shoving turn maximizes win when they call and miss their draw 80% of the time. Otherwise they c/f river and we get no more value. Betting so low as to give direct odds for a draw almost guarantees our opponent will not make a mistake. It's probably better to check honestly.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote
04-06-2018 , 02:49 PM
^^

"People will make bad calls with draws."

We ought to write this on our palms for frequent reference.
1/2 NL, Tough spot or easy fold? Quote

      
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