I respectfully disagree on this point.

The opponent is labeled as semi-competent, so unlikely they will fold TT/AK/AQs, perhaps not even AQo. Our raise is to force a mistake by them, i.e. call when behind, unlikely to improve, while getting value from most of their range.

Folding to a raise is easy since the opponent 4-bet range is narrowed to KK+. Their 4-bet range is not their entire original raising range, just the top of it.

7c6c is totally different b/c we have a made hand (JJ) that is ahead of most of his range. Nothing wrong with picking-up the 3-bet call $ when they whiff.

Note: I'm not necessarily saying 3-betting > calling, just outlining my thought process.

process it some more because its wrong.

I like to avoid 3b/folding exactly hands like this.

If you pick up the pot if he calls with AK/AQ and whiffs, you might as well have had 7c6c.

If you fold to a 4bet, you might as well have had 7c6c.

So how are the two hands different if you bluff with 7c6c versus raising for "value" with JJ? I think the only way is that you can extract value by flopping middle set. That's so unlikely that is it really worth a 3bet, exposing yourself to a 4bet that you might fold to?

EDIT: Also, what makes you think a competent player will call with TT, AK, or AQ? He might 4bet with AK, and it's definitely not a lock that he is supposed to call with TT or AQ either.

Nice, haven't been seeing too much juicy action like that there recently, even with the bloated BBJ.

I like the flat preflop more than 3-betting here. I hate going to a 3-4+ way flop OOP with a bloated pot and a lot of money behind, even if it's only 2x pot. OTB I'd be more likely to 3-bet, but still not too often.

This is one of the few flops that I might want to bet at without a J. We've dodged all overcards, so the typical KQ type calling hands have missed, a T might tag along for a bet or two, and the board is pretty dry. I want to charge AK/AQ to peel a card if they're going to stick around.

We've got 6 players for $72 in the pot right? $65 after rake.

I think I lead for about $45 here. Can fold if UTG goes nuts. Maybe call the whale if he ships and it folds back around to us.

We're folding out a lot of the overcard type hands that have potential to out-draw us. Also might get rid of the PP type hands below ours. But I think a good number of T's and 99/88 type hands call. QQ+ might raise us.

It becomes tricky here since I want to also bet the turn for the same reasons. But I DON'T like the idea of firing three streets and getting called down or raised on the river. (Although I see this **** enough in the very room with JT here.)

A lead flop, check/check turn, check/call or bet/fold river line is tempting against V's that are sticky OTF and think they can take us off a hand on the river, or those that over value their single pairs when checked too.

The whole hand is sooo much easier IP.


Given that you checked, I think I'm looking to call a bet HU or maybe 3 way. If it gets bet and called all the way around I might just raise/jam as kind of a squeeze play if UTG is competent enough to fold overpairs occasionally. If it's bet and raised I can just fold this easily. Checked around I think we need to lead any undercard turn, check fold any over card (someone hit it with 6 players in the hand).

That is the obvious move here, donking into this crowd with your minimal over pair would be bad. There should be a lot of check/fold here, but the board is dry enough that you can consider sticking around if somebody bets if you think your the only caller. The board is so dry multiway action probably means your behind to a better over pair/set.

Yes, you can say that about any 3-bet hand, including bluffs. I think your point is 3bet/folding a strong hand is not an optimal play, thus should rarely be a consideration.
================================================== ==============================
As played, agree on checking flop and eval action.

Great responses so far,

Hero checks
BB leads out for 30$ (it's a big bet in his fishy mind)
Everyone calls!!
Pot is now 220$
Hero?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums

Fold.

I am torn between folding because our pair has reverse implied odds, and calling to try to turn the nuts and stack someone who's slowplaying a smaller set.

But our odds aren't good. We're getting about 7:1 immediate, so we'd need to make about $450 on the turn and river on average to break even on this. No one is even close to deep enough to pay off. We'd basically have to hope that two people are slowplaying sets, or we'd have to hope that we make it to showdown and are good enough of the time to put more money in without improving.

I guess it's a crying fold? My biggest problem is we could still have the best hand right now but we hate basically every non-J turn and we're out of position.

It is definitely not true for hands like AA or KK. If I 3bet with AA and he calls with AK or AQ, now I win the existing pot when he whiffs but I make more off him when he flops top pair--as opposed to JJ, where I'll usually need him to whiff to win at all (just like if I have 7c6c).

This is only true because of the stated raising range of UTG, by the way. It's not true all the time.

Grunching but if V1 is competent but on the passive side I would expect his opening range to be fairly solid TT+ and maybe AQs+ something like that. 3b against that range with a whale still in the hand is terrible.

Call and take a flop. This seems completely standard at this point.

Still standard

First, stifle the laugh at an absurd situation that only happens at terrible low stakes tables. Then I guess a fold is best. If you think this gets checked down after this, the calling is OK because there is a reasonable chance you have the best hand and pot odds are good. The problem is that other then hitting a set, there is literally nothing you want to see on turn, any over or under card could give somebody a better hand. Your odds for improving are bad and your stuck way OOP.

reads on BB?

I'm sorry I messed up the original hh.. BB is the table's whale... Calling station fish. He is the table spot even for the poor players

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums

I think I straight up laugh, tell the table that the dealer is going to give you runner runner to the nuts, and fold anyway.

Playing JJ (even odds that an over card flops) oop in a five or six (including you) player multi-way pot with a competent utg raiser presents challenges that might be eliminated by a 3-bet. If you choose to call you're mostly set mining and set mining minimizes the strength of your JJ and turns it into a small or medium pair. There is also the possibility that you call and now you're looking at a raggedy flop where you've an over-pair but no idea what your four or five opponents are holding and so what do you do with what could be the best hand? 3-betting gets your big pf pair value against the lower part of utg range, information about his hand and likely reduces the number of opponents seeing the flop (bad players recognize that a re-raise from the sb signals a big hand) and so increases your equity. However, if you chose to 3-bet (pf pot currently 48) to at least 50 (60 might help get you hu) and you get 4-bet you need to consider folding. Is the reason you're not 3-betting tactical (what's your reason to call from oop in a multi-way pot) or is it an attempt to reduce variance when you either have to fold to a 4-bet or are called four ways and lose a big pot to a marginal pf holding? 3-bet with JJ from the sb.

I'd reluctantly C/F. Many danger cards can hit the turn, you are oop with too many opponents to hope the hand checks through later.

You may have the best hand, however the spot is difficult to navigate profitably.

grunch: call

assuming you're in the sb and the remaining to act villain is in the bb. i'd say both raising and set-mining are probably +EV. setmining will be lower variance as you're going to have to raise big pre and c-bet pretty much everything. plus first villain is semi-competent and showing strength... and rest of table may be "sticky"... and probably most importantly you're out of position. you could very well end up value-owning yourself if you raise and take control. i'd just set-mine. hit the flop and go, or miss the flop and give up.

i might still setmine from late position... but it'd be a tougher choice.

Bumping the flop action

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums

read flop description and other responses. i'm obviously in the minority here but i like the set mine and i'd fold the flop. bb lead out and everyone calls is amazing (great action table) but i doubt you're winning and i doubt you're going to fold everyone out so i'd stick with the set-mine plan. you missed so give up. but sounds like you can take your made hands to value town against multiple opponents at this table which is great.

Grunch

Before opening the thread, I assumed by the title that you were some sore loser fishy 2p2er, "stupid JJ in the stupid SB". lols.... then I saw it was you.

I would personally 3b pre because I get so many worse hands to call in general. This is very very image dependant. Does villain call with the 99/TT/AQ range? If so, it's a 3bet. I see many competent players (even winning players) have a leak of set mining too often in 3b pots, meaning a lot of villains call with worse here.

I have another question, when you say "raise sizing tell" does he have a big tell? 12 seems fairly large, but some villains love to bomb with 15+ with TT+ and AQss+, then 10-12 with 77-99, AJo, KQ, and Pot sweeteners of 5-8 with JTss, kjo, 44, 55, etc. That's all dependant as well.

I mean, winning 25bb preflop is one heck of a victory, I feel gross flatting this hand because of the reward. If we are good enough to fold to 4b, I think 3betting is the correct play.

If you flat, you are essentially set mining and should be very willing to fold low flops to a healthy cbet.

I don't think it's incorrect either way

I agree with flatting PF.

However, with that board...I think we haveto bet out. I don't see why we haveto be treating JJ here as a strict set-mining hand...We have an overpair to a dry board, I think we haveto at least lead out a healthy bet here. By c/c we get no information. I don't see how we can c/f on the flop seeing as we would be just assuming someone definitely has a higher pair, which I am not quite convinced of yet. I say bet out $35-$40, fold to a raise, re-evaluate on the turn to a call.

I dont understand how you flat pre. I also dont understand how people are recommending to flat pre.

The flop action is a great example of why should raise pre.

You have to raise pre. There is free money out there waiting to be taken. Why in the world would you not raise???

I understand that it would be bad if the UTG raiser shipped. But.... so what? He hasnt done it yet. You dont know for a fact that he is going to do it. If you're afraid of him jamming to a 3bet, then FOLD! If you 3b and he jams, then figure it out and probably fold. But calling is, just, bad.

Explain what the plan is when we start by flatting PF? To flop a set? With 5-6 players out there, its actually worse for us to flop an overpair because 2pr/sets are all over us. At least if the flop comes A Q 5 we can comfortably throw our hand, and $12, away. If we flop an overpair, we're sitting there thinking, "well I could be good, maybe he just flopped a 10, but he could have some weird 2pr, or a set, hmmmmmmm, I wish I would have raised pre..."

If you flat, you're playing 6ways OTF. JJ may as well be 22 at that point, because unless you flop a set, you're usually going to have to fold.

Make it $50-60 preflop, punish other players, not yourself. If you flat, plan on folding unless you hit a set. Which brings me back to the part where I say thats crazy, because we're playing JJ like its 44, and its NOT!

Flop is either raise or fold and both suck.

Raising at a table where betting $70 might not get hero heads up has it's own range of challenges. Short of flopping a set or better this hand was never going to be easy to play post flop. At a table where a smaller bet gets hero heads up then I'm all for it, because hero can use a mix of check/fold and c-bet/fold without wasting too much of stack when beaten and has a good chance of having best hand. Here hero is looking at betting 1/4 of stack preflop and stuck between check/fold or shove on most flops.

In this sort of situation I would rather play JJ as a middle pair and set mine preflop. Yes this means we will be folding the best hand an annoying percent of the time but it also reduces the ways hero gets felted and the amount hero wastes when forced to fold. On this particular board hero would have preferred raising preflop (unless somebody has QQ+) but there are few flops as dry or good for JJ.