1/2 NL

Dawn. Game has been running all night and is just about out of gas.

Opponent, button, ($covers). Regular in the room, 20s, he clearly takes the game seriously and I'm assuming he's a "pro". He puts in a LOT of hours and seems ABC. Probably is on auto-pilot a lot based on his volume. He recently took a long break and smells like he just burned one in his car.

Myself, middle position, ($500ish). I'm likely viewed by my opponent as a reasonable semi-regular. I tend to talk with the older gamblers at the poker room rather than the young grinders. So maybe he views me as a reg-fish since I'm friendly with all those guys. I don't know. We don't have much notable history and this session he stacked me in a pre-flop all-in my KK vs. his AA, that was many hours ago.

PREFLOP: I open-raise $10 with QT's in middle position, my opponent calls from the button. Heads-up to the flop.

FLOP ($20ish): 45Q -- I bet $15, opponent calls.

TURN ($50ish): 4 -- I bet $35, opponent calls.

RIVER ($120ish): 9 -- I check, opponent bets $90, I fold.

I was torn between betting and folding and checking and folding. I didn't think to check and call as I didn't think my opponent's range had any bluffs in it aside from four combos of 67s. I assumed he'd likely take a showdown with say a worse two pair rather than turn it into a bluff. So should I have value bet or was I right to check and fold?

I like a check in this hand on either the flop or the turn. You have a weak made hand oop that wants showdown. Keep the pot small and add deception.

Once you bet and are called otf it seems to me that barreling the turn and checking the river is bad business. If you are going to bet commit to a triple barrel unless you have a specific read he is a two bullet folder. By checking the river you give him the chance to bluff you off your hand with 66/77/88/76 or take a free showdown when he is ahead with QJ/KQ etc.

Do you know anything more about his tendencies?

If the table is just folding to any raise, I'm fine with the MP raise with QTs. Otherwise, it is a fold pf. I'd check the turn rather than the river. If I'm betting the turn, I'm betting the river.

In abstract, this is a fold. You have to assume that in general a villain willing to call on flop and turn and is is betting rather then checking river can beat top pair/bad kicker most of the time.

However, this isn't a trivial situation and the proper play is actually very situational. This sort of hand with decent but not great showdown value is a situation where you need balance over time against a decent villain that you play regularly. You need to bet/bet/bet with this hand some of the time, bluff catch some of the time and give up along the way some of the time. The right ratio is very meta-game, depending on the exact board, how villain plays against you and your history in previous hands.

V, as described, probably has a wide range to "only" a raise to $10 OTB. If you think V views you as weak, he may have been floating you here. The 9 otr would appear to change nothing and I doubt V is just calling you with much worse here. I think b/f or ck/call are both OK lines here, but not ck/f. I would have called.

from your opponents perspective, you cbet a fairly dry flop and barreled a good turn card and when you check, it's an auto bet from him.

when i'm torn between b/f and c/c, i tend to lean towards b/f because i can determine the price i pay rather than check and get blown out of the water by a ridic bet that i don't feel comfortable calling.

I appreciate the feedback.

I think checking and calling the turn could have been a good line, lead some rivers or whatever to balance it out after a turn check. Vs. a good player, I like this line because I think we can get a bet from a "float" as this is a flop texture I likely continuation bet too much so a good player could float me often. If I had a more aggressive image, I think that is a good line!

Moving on, I disagree with most of you and now I'm really confused since everyone seems to be on a different page than me.

I think checking and calling the river is a poor choice, like a really poor choice. What value-betting hands of my opponent do I beat? How many bluffs can he possibly have in his range. Shouldn't the bottom of my opponents range be something like 77/88. How many hands in the bottom of his range is he going to turn into bluffs rather than showdown? Like only one hand of his doesn't have showdown value. I just can't imagine a split of his hand range that has many bluffs and thin valuebets. I can't understand at all the logic for checking and calling. What am I missing that you guys are suggesting it? If you're in the opponents shoes and you have TT or JJ are you really value-betting this river? What hands do you think are in my range that I would call with? I don't get checking and calling at all.

With regards to betting and folding my thought process at the time was that I can get value from 66-88, TT/JJ -- and that's about it. It also seemed optimistic. Sometimes he slow-plays over-pairs, sometimes he folds middling pairs on turn, sometimes he three-bets TT/JJ pre-flop. And if we're giving him say 77/88 he obviously can have 99 too. So when betting the river, what could I really get value from? Better queens snap me off, there aren't really any worse Qx, he can have better two pairs like Q9, Q5s, full houses too. The board is so dry it's not like he is raising the top of his range on earlier streets too often. 88/TT/JJ just seemed like way less combos than all the hands that beat me.

I don't know, maybe I just give me opponents too much credit. However, I'd really like someone who is arguing for betting and folding or checking and calling to split up a range for my opponent and show me the possible hands we can get value from vs. the hands that bluff or mistakenly valuebet vs. the hands that beat us. I felt there were very few combos when I folded at the table.

EDIT: Venice10, while it was a table void of action hence the open raise. I think you're onto something with your post. The reason the spot on the river sucks IMO is because QJ/KQ/AQ. We're in a situation where I'm dominated by hands I could get value from. It's one of those things were you really see how playing the QT vs. say KQ can hurt you. Like, I'd feel much better about valuebetting the river w/ KQ, ya know?

I don't really like b/f or a c/c. I don't think we ever get called by worse or bets from worse. I like a c/c on the turn so he can bet with his air and reevaluate (mostly c/f) otr.

I don't think your bet on the turn ever gets called by worse by this villain. In spots like these I like to take a line of

bet flop
check turn
bet/fold river

I believe you will get max value with this line in this spot

IMHO checking the river after bet/bet line opens you up for a bluff from a competent player IP. Putting you on a meh Q or worse JJ/TT. I'd probably bet/fold $55 OTR.
Or pot control OOP with a flop check, delayed C-bet on turn and then bet river to keep bets and pot smaller.

As played think folding is fine.

I don't understand all the people in this thread saying that we don't want to check the river because it allows Villain to bluff. If that's the case, then check/calling is best.

Now, personally I don't believe that's the case, and I'm with TripleH. Betting both the flop and turn is overplaying here. That's why you have this spot on the river. But once you get to the river, I don't think the check/fold is that bad. You are deep enough that if Villain wanted to bluff you, he might have at least sometimes raised the turn. So I think if you call you're going to see better a lot.

What about the idea of raising to bluff out better queens?

I doubt this will be effective in most $1/2 games where TPGK has a very difficult time getting away from their hands.

On paper this is so sexy. A check-raise to $300 represents so many hands (AA/KK/QQ/99/AQ). The 4 ott should be a good card for this play no? Guess it just depends on specific reads on villain's river bet and how much he cares about the money.

Plus bluff-check-raising into quads earns you a special poker badge (I have one).

Grunch.

I think I am going to bet this all the way and then just fold if the opponent raises the river. Your check shows weakness and a decent player who has no showdown value is going to interpret it that way.

If you value own yourself, then oh well. If you are not getting shown a better hand on the river some of the time, then you are not value betting thinly enough.

My sizing on the river would be about $60. This would be small enough to get a crying call out of his range that we are ahead of but its an amount that we can safely fold if villain raises.

This depends a lot on the villain. Against overly aggressive villains this is often a good line. When you check the turn and river they are going to figure you c-bet with air and have nothing and have already given up. This will make them bet the river super wide, often close to 100% of the time, turning their marginal value hands like 77/88/9T/TT into bluffs. Essentially, by under playing our hand we put enough bluffs into villains range that calling on river is +EV where betting turn and river is -EV because only the hands that beat us are going to call down. This is a very situational line though, because it will be +EV only against aggressive bluffy villains. A more balanced villain will normally check their marginal hands on the river, because you should have some weak queens and JJ type hands in your range that might call a bet but don't want to build a big pot. A balanced villain will mostly be value betting river with hands that beat you, with the occasional bluff with a whiffed draw thrown in.

This is a situation where there are a lot of potentially viable lines you can take here on turn and river. Bet/bet is essentially a range merge, hoping to get a call some of the time from some worse hands like JJ and fold out some hands slightly ahead some of the time, such as QJ. Bet turn and then check/raise river represents a big hand and will fold out more QX that beats you but is obviously high risk. Bet turn/check/call river can work as a bluff catch in some situations, though this board and your hand are not good for it. Check turn and bet river if villain checks keeps his range wider and the pot smaller. And some of the time just check and fold when villain bets.

You played the hand like most people would. If you x/c turn you can fold to a river bet. But when you bet bet then x/f you are losing a lot of money in the long run. Any competent V will bet river in this spot. I strongly prefer a x/c ott

^^^THIS^^^

I check the turn.

I think the most optimal line is checking the turn and the river as played is a c/f usually but not always

betting the turn is not a big mistake tho, and following that I do believe it's mostly a c/f but it would bother me