Vegas Mirage 1/2 NL
Was sitting on a very passive table (barely any pre-flop raise) with a lot of players playing close to 50BB...barely giving us odds for set mining with a 5BB standard pre-flop raise. Most 10 BB raises also won the blinds.

BONUS: Most quads at least paid $100 - using both hole cards

I felt like I was loosing a lot of value with PP that were 99-55...raising usually wins the blinds and limpers (A problem with bonus...but, even ignoring bonus, I felt like winning $3 or even $7 with a raise may not be ideal??????????) because if called, they have a premium hand and I have to fold most flops - so winning a few blinds to fold a $10-$13 pre-flop call, did not seem profitable in the long run (AA-TT, can withstand more flop)...Of course, I am not always folding flop, however, all the combination of post flop plays just didn't seem profitable, given the poor probability for set mining.

(Ignoring position for simplicity)

Of course, very low PFR gave us more limping opportunity with speculative drawing hands.

Please discuss with and without bonus into consideration...Thank you!

P.S: I was limping and folding many of those hands...and had to fold any raises with poor stacks.

F!...this is wrong "Most 10 BB raises also won the blinds." (First paragraph, last sentence)

It should say "Most 5BB raises also won the blinds"

P.S: Also, just ignore the bonus - just to get the basic concept right in a passive table with low stacks.

You are correct to assume this is just a bad situation. 50BB poker is the worst possible stack to play. Too little for implied odds, too much to jam with. When you're playing small PP's you need to be in a situation with some fold equity to win without showdown. Get up, walk around and look for a deeper table and get on the list for a table change. Honestly I wouldnt even continue playing, I'd just quit the game and go back on the waitlist entirely.

Thanks for the reply to help me think it through...

Lack of fold equity is interesting - I typically play low variance game, and I wonder when the situation is correct for a bluff, whether holding a PP makes much of a difference - holding two outers as a rescue....not much different from any two cards .....don’t know???...Frankly I only bluff when situation is prime, and typically with any two cards....I don’t consider betting with good draws as bluffs though.

Overall the table was fine though, given I was able to play many speculative hands and use position - frankly I should have been a lot more aggressive post flop, which I failed to do....

Given the overall positive nature of the table, I didn’t mind not playing small PP non-ideal.

I am wondering whether I should have tried like a $8 raise (or $6 was typically called by all limpers) - May be those would be the sweet spot???...I know for a fact the table will not be aware enough to exploit this.

The problem with raising with small PP's playing with 50BB's is that you either have to hit your set or hope villains are super passive and just fold to any cbet. Otherwise if they float or look you up light on the flop they're basically pot committed by the turn so you have no room left to get them off a hand.

Quad bonus is not a factor here. Let's assume you're always going to get to see all five cards. Your chance of hitting quads is still only 2%. That means the EV of the bonus is a grand $2. Forget it.

I am running way under EV then.

2% is one time in 50 I am supposed to get quads, not a chance I am anywhere near that.

Not even 2%

(48 choose 3)/(50 choose 5) = 1 in 122.5. The quads bonus is worth about 82 cents starting with a pocket pair.

Open smaller at tight tables. 5BB is a huge open meant to exploit bad loose players.

Good point.... I don’t play a whole lot, but in my experience these ~50BB players typically consider whether they are front or behind rather than pot commitment/odds

Yes, quad bonus should not be a consideration other than may be the one quad that paid $2.5k?

As most were raising 5BB whenever they raised, I fell into the trap of doing the same - which is typically ok, but here me raising 3BB would have been better (this typically resulted in all liners and BB calling)

^ raising smaller with PP's is an even bigger recipe for disaster because you are going to get called 5 or 6 handed, maybe even more, every single time. You will lose every hand. The only value in PP's is implied odds to win a big stack or FE to bluff with. You have neither. You cant play PP's profitably in any way in the format you are stuck in. This is why I said just get up and leave the game, because making sets and boats are a huge addition to your bottom line.

They’re blind steals. When OP said a 5x open was usually taking down the blinds I figured it’s a very tight table. 3x or 2.5x would lay a better price on steals and still be successful enough in an extremely tight game if people play poorly when they do call.

I wouldn’t open them in EP though, or play at a table where most of my profit comes from stealing $3

Thanks