Hero: early 20s, probably TAG image, has been at the table for 4 hours, but first few hours hero has been card dead and viewed as nit but picked up hands later on. ($450)

V1: mid 50s asian lady, super nitty, ($100)

V2: TAG player, late 20s. hero has not seen V2 get out of line, and he is a winning player. ($450)

Folds around to V1 in MP, V1 limps.
V2 in CO raises to $15
Hero OTB looks down at AT

I was considering 3 betting here, since I knew his LP raising was wide, but we were deep so I just flatted (thoughts?). Both blinds fold, V1 calls

3 way to flop

FLOP ($47)

325

V1 donk bets $31, V2 thinks about 30 seconds and then raises to $80.

Hero?

I kind of wanted to get it all in here otf, just because I feel like a lot of turn cards can kill my action. Thoughts?

As played, I don't mind the action.

I'd raise to 180 maybe on the flop and if V1 has a set, so be it, you still have outs.

Could really define the hands better by 3betting pre maybe to 45/50, but let's say they call and it's checked to you on that flop. You bet and someone pushes, are you calling? I am. Point is, either way I'm trying to get the money in on the flop.

I would just shove

i think flat or 3b pre is fine. what I chose would depend on gameflow/feel but
id say if v2 has a fold button which it sounds like he probably does id lean towards 3b. bc your edge will be better vs him if you 3b in pos (him folding pf, or him calling pf, ch/f most flops. where as if you flat call him pf and invite another caller or 2 your now the one folding most flops. his range is probably pretty wide since hes a good player in late position trying to iso a limp. so I think your getting a lot of folds here and hell play pretty straightforwardly vs your image.

otf your getting about 2:1 when it gets to you. your equity is better than 33% here with your straight draw and NFD , calling puts your hands face up imo but maybe im wrong maybe opponents would think you have mid pairs here a lot with a flat. and like you said it will probably be hard to get paid off if you hit your hand ott unless one of them have a set or overpair with a heart and cant find a fold. im not sure I like flatting here even though I think its okay. id like to see what other peoples thought process is for how to play the turn if they flat the flop and miss the turn and how theyd continue vs 1/3-psb ott with given stack sizes. I think my choice would be to cold 3b because it looks so strong and should get a lot of folds and if it doesn't you still have a ton of equity. if you get 4b they obv have you beat but youll be able to call off profitably.

im 3betting/GII otf to 240-ALLIN depending on what I feel would get both to fold more often.

If nitty V1 makes this bet with sets only we have to somewhat discount fold value from V2 as we wont be the recipient of the fold value when V1's sets hold up.

V2's raise seems like he really wants us to fold which reduces the likelihood of him holding KQ hearts.

I don't think he can call a raise with any big pocket pair because sets are easily in our range and we're deep.

Pushing is only a disaster when V2 has a set but what else would he call with?

I think calling is best. You may have to check behind a turned heart to get a bet in on the river and risk a boat hitting. But what if they both have over pairs that would fold to a raise/push? Is the value from that greater than calling, hitting and getting another bet in on the river?

Pushing for metagame: if you show down you can push a set later and be more likely to get a call from an over pair that you crush.

This seems like a close situation.

I would rarely 3bet here. Why do you think V2's CO iso-raise range here is wide? He knows V1 is calling most of the time, and she is "super nitty". I'd think V2's range here is stronger than if he opened without there being a limper.

Also, limp calling 15 with a 100 stack is a clear mistake with small pp and Axs. Let V1 make this mistake.

In general I think your hand is a bit too strong to 3bet here. Since you can call profitably, better to call with ATs and use a hand you cannot call profitably, like J9s, to 3bet. It depends on V1's l/rr and 3bet calling tendencies, of course. My 3bet range might be QQ+ only in this spot.

From the tone of your post I think you are overvaluing your hand here. You did flop very good for your hand, but you are only 53% against KK. You shouldn't be concerned about turn cards that kill your action, rather, every turn you miss halves your equity. If the turn is a black K and V2 bets pot, you might have to fold.

That being said, you want to use the depth of your stack to force out V2. I would raise to 280 or AI, whichever is more likely to get V2 to fold. It sounds like you are happy to get it in with V2 here, but you would much rather him fold.

Turn:

tough spot since V1 is almost never folding. and you are probably going to have to hit one of your draws to win what is already in the middle, so while a 3-bet should have a great deal of Fold Equity vs. V2, it doesn't really do us much good since we still have to hit our hand to win. Folding out V2 just means we are gambling our 55% equity for a smaller risk/pot.


With all that said, I probably either shove here or raise enough that I am committed to a re-shove or committed to a shove on the turn. $180-$200 should do it. If we brick the turn, we can still profitably call it off if he shoves, and check behind if he checks, as our fold equity would be zero at that point. Calling sucks because V2 almost always shoves the turn, and we never get to realize our equity.

I like how you played this. Well played J_tacular. I think you have to GII here. If he has you beat, so be it.

Yeah, I like your line here OP. NH IMO.

If V is really a TAG player - then he's NOT raising in LP wide. He's doing it with strong hands that would probably be 55+, AK, AQs. That is what a TAG player does.


V1 is super nitty - and she bets 1/3 of her stack on the flop. What's her range? She limped then called a pfr oop. Here, she could show up with a set, A4 and medium over pairs, right?

V2 who "hero has not seen V2 get out of line" now repops it to 80.
What's he doing THAT with? He raised pre-flop - and then re-raised on the flop. Here, he could have a set, an over pair or the second nut flush (KQ, QJ, KJ). If he's got a FD, we WANT him to keep betting.

I don't understand the urgency to shove here when we're only getting called by better hands. If V2 has a flush draw - we DON'T want to push him out of the pot. By raising, you're only getting called by better hands and folding out the ones we beat.

In most cases, Super Nitty is probably shoving to the $80 re-pop so we'll be in for $100. 3-betting here is only guaranteeing that we go heads up with a nutted hand as a 2:1 dog.

I might be in the minority here, but I think against a Super Nit and a TAG player, overplaying a FD is a very high variance play. I'm in the call camp. See the turn and re-evaluate.

Ok, lets say the turn comes a 9.

If V2 bets are you only calling when getting good enough odds to chase?
If V2 checks, do we check behind?

With the flop raise what are we trying to accomplish?

If V1 is "super nitty" I put her range on specifically sets/2pair/maybe some rando overpair like KK or something.

Essentially if she's donk betting she will be committing her stack on the flop, so its 85 on the flop, and I assume V2 understands that.

IF V2 is a smart TAG like you say what range are you expecting him to raise a "super nit" with that is never folding? AND are you expecting FE to help your EV in this situation if you are raising V2?

I'm raising this flop almost always. Sets are possible but most likely hands are overpairs. And, I guess some players bet out into preflop aggressors with sets, but come on V1 was so short her money was going to get in here no matter what. Imo she'd check here with her sets.

Results:

Without looking at results - and based on your descriptions - it feels as if the Super Nitty player is NOT folding and is ahead of us at the moment.
Re-raising might fold out V2 who's somewhat of an unknown - but if V2 has noticed that V1 is super nitty - then he's likely even stronger.

If V2 bets on a blank turn, then we're most likely beat for a side pot. If V2 checks, I would check it behind.

This is 1/2 that you're playing - not a super sophisticated high stakes game with tricky thinking players. If you miss the turn, you hit your hand less than 1 in 5 times on the river - so unless you can get some extra IO cash from V2 with a river bet, chasing becomes mostly a losing play.

What did he have?

Sorry, V2 had:

If V2 is getting 225bb in OTF multiway in a single raised pot, this is pretty great news. Curious why (and how you were able to) run it twice? You have a 12-15+ out draw, you've got good equity, and you're not super deep...

Well running it twice can reduce variance, it was a $900 pot, which is pretty big for a 1/2 game. If it was like $200-$300 pot i'd run it once. But otf Im not far ahead, around 53%. The place I play at allows players to run it twice but it has to be HU.

I personally will always run it twice if the other players in the pot wish to do so. The fact that we have X% equity doesn't change anything. We still have the same amount of equity regardless of how many times we run it.

Just yesterday I played a hand where I raised pre with JJ, got called in 2 spots, and a short stacker jammed for $180, and got cold called by a fish in the blinds. I jammed for ~$650 on top. It folds back to him, he asked me if I run it twice, I told him that I would if he wanted. He called with Q8o.

I find that players will call really light (with weak draws mostly), if they know that they will get 2 shots at it. Obviously I want this call all day long.

3bet flop to $220 and get it in if you think you have decent fold equit against overpair. Otherwise I'd fold flop. Your outs are too obvious when you hit to get paid

What range are you putting Villain on here to consider folding the flop? If Villains range is over pairs and dominated flush draws we are in good shape. Sets/straights, and two-pairs seem unlikely to me.

Today I learned I'm actually a LAG for raising in LP with my QJs.