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Old 05-20-2015, 08:18 AM   #1
MaxValue1234
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1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Five limpers and Hero on button holding JJ

Hero: ?
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:38 AM   #2
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

You have 800+ posts and you're seriously asking this? Seriously?

Table dynamics, stack size?

No one can possibly give a "right" answer here. Thus I laughingly like the above poster's "fold and wait for a better spot".
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:40 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kler View Post
You have 800+ posts and you're seriously asking this? Seriously?

Table dynamics, stack size?

No one can possibly give a "right" answer here. Thus I laughingly like the above poster's "fold and wait for a better spot".
I've been mostly playing limit Omaha hi/lo cash games and I'm just getting back into live NL.

Table dynamics: 75% stations, lots of limp-calling, a few loose players who like to straddle, make tiny pot sweetener raises against large fields of limpers, a couple of semi-decent regs in the mix.

Stack size: Hero is sitting on $300 Most of the table is $150-300
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:47 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxValue1234 View Post
I've been mostly playing limit Omaha hi/lo cash games and I'm just getting back into live NL.

Table dynamics: 75% stations, lots of limp-calling, a few loose players who like to straddle, make tiny pot sweetener raises against large fields of limpers, a couple of semi-decent regs in the mix.

Stack size: Hero is sitting on $300 Most of the table is $150-300
Who are the limpers? What kind of reads? What are the applicable stack sizes? How wide do the limp-callers call? What size raise sizes will they call versus fold?

IMO it's a raise, just a matter of how much we are raising.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:47 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

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Originally Posted by DaYu View Post
fold and wait for a better spot.
winnar
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:52 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

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Who are the limpers? What kind of reads? What are the applicable stack sizes? How wide do the limp-callers call? What size raise sizes will they call versus fold?

IMO it's a raise, just a matter of how much we are raising.
The decent players are on my left unfortunately (about 2-3 seats away) and the rest of the table are mostly stations with a few stations that like to make pot sweetening raises with large fields of limpers or to straddle the button or UTG (i.e. table limps for $2 or $4 on a straddle, they'll raise to $7 or $11)

These guys will call any high/low suited, connectors, easily dominated broadway cards, etc. Generally they get out of the way of $25-30 bets but usually 1-2 will call a $20 raise.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:52 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Table dynamic?

If stations then you need to raise here .. pot is $15 with your call .. raise to $14-18 total IMO as you are 35% to see an over-card on the Flop. Lots of 1-2 players look at the 'real' dollar chip value than the pot size. I don't like to offer 'better' than 2.2 to 1 to the first caller and may go steeper if I think too many will call.

How long were you at the table? You should get a feel for what the opening bet sizes have been and what you need to do to get this down to 3 players max or HU. GL
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:56 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Five limpers and Hero on button holding JJ

Hero ($300 stack) : raises to $25
BB ($230 starting stack): calls $25
CO ($100 starting stack): calls $25

Pot: $84
Flop: 952
BB checks
CO checks
Hero: ?
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:01 AM   #9
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

I had the similar situation last month (2-4 game). I was on co and the very loose rich young guy limped utg. +1 called +2 called i raised from 4 to 50. The rich guy called. I had KK and he had J7s.

Flop: I bet he called with his 2 pair. He turned to full house. I catched my two outs on river and stacked him off.

My toughts: I know that the rich guy will call me with any hand. We had history with him. I was a loose player in his mind, i had made some actions that he thinks in that way. Its just about your opponents how big you have to bet.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:09 AM   #10
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

The point of the PAHWM format is when multiple decisions in a hand are debatable. If there's only one part of a hand that's an obvious question it's better to just skip straight to it. (And if you've overlooked a decision earlier on because you thought it was obviously X but it turns out Y is better, a responder may point it out anyway)

Flop I'd bet a little over half pot generally, goal is to get value from 9x and draws, probably not folding with these stacks.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:11 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxValue1234 View Post
Five limpers and Hero on button holding JJ

Hero ($300 stack) : raises to $25
BB ($230 starting stack): calls $25
CO ($100 starting stack): calls $25

Pot: $84
Flop: 952
BB checks
CO checks
Hero: ?
Also responding to your elaboration on player's preflop tendencies (75% stations, the pot sweetening raises etc.), it still depends on your image. For myself, I play very tight, but people think I'm way more of a nit/fit or fold than I actually am. So in this spot I'm raising it up to like 20-25 (or whatever will be considered a very big but not enormous raise at this table), because I expect lots of folds. If an A or K hits the flop I can usually take down the pot with a c-bet of between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot. If I have an overpair I'll either have the same result, or I'll have a fish in there who will just think I whiffed AK or hit top pair or a draw and I can take it from there.

On that flop (but who are the villains? how do they play?) I'm most likely betting 65-70. Maybe 45-50 it depends on the villains. If BB stays in the pot then I really have to consider his range and what he's doing here, basically whether or not I want us to stack off with an overpair. If he folds then there are no more decisions to be made, since you basically just put the CO all in.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:15 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxValue1234 View Post
Five limpers and Hero on button holding JJ

Hero ($300 stack) : raises to $25
BB ($230 starting stack): calls $25
CO ($100 starting stack): calls $25

Pot: $84
Flop: 952
BB checks
CO checks
Hero: ?
Bet $65 to target hearts, a 9 and weak straight draws.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:20 AM   #13
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Thanks DK Barrel. I'm coming from having been playing limit Omaha hi/lo cash games and just getting back into NL. So I want to check my bet sizing and such until I'm more comfortable with the game.

Five limpers and Hero on button holding JJ

Hero ($300 stack) : raises to $25
BB ($230 starting stack): calls $25
CO ($100 starting stack): calls $25

Pot: $84
Flop: 952
BB checks
CO checks
Hero: bets $50
BB folds
CO goes all-in for $75 total
Hero calls $25

CO turns over: T9

Turn: T
River: 2
Hero wins

note: CO had just sat down at the table with $100
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:27 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

CO only has $75 left .. 2 choices ..

1) Bet $75 .. don't beat around the bush. He's in or out. I would tank a bit to perhaps sell a heart draw. This also 'forces' BB all-in on the Turn in most cases.
2) Bet $35 .. This will allow you to shove over the top of BB if CO shoves (and BB flats your bet). We force BB to commit before any more cards come out.

Option 2 is a bit risky since both players could flat getting a very nice price and we need to fade half the deck for 'scare' cards (hearts and overs).

With JJ I don't think I go with option 1 most of the time. There is some nice chips in the middle, why get cute? GL
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:38 AM   #15
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Looks good man.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:58 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Not much to add, typical live low stakes hand.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:45 AM   #17
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

looks juicy to me i raise to 35 pre
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:50 AM   #18
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Hey OP:

I can't speak for anybody else but in general for me it is really helpful to have the following things in the first post:

-stack sizes of Vs in the hand
-details about Vs in the hand
-general background of table dynamics
-some people post self-assessment but every single one is "hero is TAG and perceived by table to be winning player" so whatever.
-***if there is a specific issue you want to explore, like bet sizing, say it.

I can't stress these (outside of the self assessment) enough. Without the details and what specific points you're wondering about people can't help you.

Also, IMO, don't spread the hand out over multiple posts unless each point was a tough decision. That's the PAHWM format someone else mentioned. Instead if you are looking for help with bet sizing, you might lay out the whole hand except results and then ask what people thought of your flop and turn sizing. People are pretty good about breaking down how they'd approach each step, if you take a look at other strat posts.

This is a pretty ABC hand where you had an overpair and got someone with very little money to put their stack in. The hand plays very differently if the stacks are deeper (imagine if V had 200BB and called the flop then c/r the turn?) but they weren't.

When all stacks are fairly close I'm a standard 4-5x open + 1BB/limper kind of guy. $20 is reasonable here since we don't know about other stack sizes. I know someone suggested $35 but that feels pretty awful if guy who started with $100 shoves into you on a flop with overcards to your jacks. Not sure the logic behind making it that big.

Anyway, hope this helps. Guess I'm kind of confused about what you need here.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:57 AM   #19
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

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Originally Posted by PoppaLarge View Post
Hey OP:

\ Not sure the logic behind making it that big.
well its called hand reading and getting paid
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:17 AM   #20
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Oh okay. Care to elaborate?
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:45 AM   #21
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

Sorry but did you not lose to two pair?
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:58 AM   #22
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Re: 1/2 NL Oh No Not Jacks!

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Sorry but did you not lose to two pair?
Our two pair is better - JJ22T wins.
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