Both Villains are regs at another casino but come over to the casino I play at on Fridays and Saturdays. Both Villains have been seen to play 2-5 and seem to be playing the majority at this stake.

Villain 1 sat down about 1h ago, has been playing very tight, is very observant, follows action. He seems to be on a downswing, shakes head on missed flops or cbets which get called, seems to be getting frustrated

Villain 2 is confirmed 2+2er, has been quite active, either opening himself or iso-raising fish to his right from CO or BTN, has been 3betting a fair amount. On a previous table I had him to my left and he started 3betting me quite a bit before moving tables. I moved shortly after and now am sitting 2 to his left, have avoided big confrontations so far. He was in for 200 and is now even.

Hero: mid 30s white guy, playing tight, has 3bet V2 twice in 4h and has been chipping up without being in big pots where hands where shown down.

190bb effective:

* HJ Villain 2 (382.0)
* C/O (200.0)
* HERO is (btn) (402.0)
* SB (200.0)
* BB (200.0)
* UTG Villain 1 (197.0)
* EP (200.0)
* MP (200.0)
* LMP (200.0)
Playing 1.0/2.0
PRE-FLOP : Hero is BTN with 9 8
UTG [Villain 1] Raises to 12.0, 3 folds, HJ [Villain 2] Calls 12.00, 1 fold, HERO Calls 12.00, 2 folds
FLOP : ( 39) Q 2 8 (1 player)
Villain 2:$370, Hero:$390, Villain 1:$185
UTG [Villain 1] Bets 30.0, HJ [Villain 2] Calls 30.00, HERO Raises to 105.0, 1 fold, HJ [Villain 2] 3Bets to 370.0 (all-in), HERO ?

Villain 2 thought about it for 30 seconds, then announced all-in but it was so low in volume I could barely hear him and had to ask him if he just announced all-in and he looked down and just nodded his head. Then he pulled up his hoddie and was a statue. I tried to get any reads from him but he had shades+hoddie, didn't move.

Villain 1 tanked about 1 minute before folding very reluctantly and when I didn't snap-call the shove, he said: "I can't believe you raised me off the best hand". The dealer told him to keep quiet right after so I assume Villain 1 had KK or AA which would, if my assumption is correct, eliminate some of the combos V2 has here that he ships it in with.

This line just doesn't make much sense unless V2 has a read on me that I was weak but this was literally my first big raise on the flop in 5+ hours.

All thoughts&comments appreciated!

You are getting just over 2:1 here. If he has a set u r like 30 percent and are racing against the rest of the things he could have like higher flush draw, overplayed AQ. Call, expect to see a fair amount of sets.

Suprised to see that you think his range leans towards sets. Can you explain why you see sets here more often than not? I convinced myself that he doesn't have a set as he can only really have 22 here (and exactly 1 combo of 88) and even that seems unlikely as he wouldn't smooth call the cbet on the flop 3 way I would assume?

You've said V2 3bets quite a bit (was this only pre-flop or post-flop also?). In your opinion, is he jamming here with air? Villain may also be semi-bluffing w/ a higher flush draw. On whether to call the AI or not, I think this is going to be a hard question for us to answer as it involves a lot of soul reading on your part - it appears Villain is not your average 1/2 fish only shoving with a big hand. I have no answer for you TBH on whether to call or not here, it really requires a soul read.

As played, the Villains did the pot building for you OTF so I don't like your raise here especially against these villains. just call and see the river card. Did you plan what you would do if you were 3-bet here before you raised?

yeah if you're thinking that he rarely has a set then this is an auto-call getting 2:1 on your money when you are racing or ahead of anything that isn't a set? (Assuming he isn't playing Q8/Q2/82)

Obvious poker stove question is obvious.

Also why do you think V2 thinks you are weak and can fold here? Maybe it's the opposite?

I would've just called flop.

But since you raised you have to call it off now.

Isn't that why you raised to gii?

You can never reraise with this type of hand and then fold to a shove (unless super deep). I like the raise to put pressure on one pair type hands utilizing fold equity plus we are close to flipping if they do get stubborn.

I like a closer to pot size raise though, your raise ends up 70 into 130 I believe, when you raise you're committed to the pot with your big draw anyways so go for the jugular.

He could have flatted Jc10c type hand with a combo draw and he doesn't want to get pushed off on the turn, or a slow played set. You're priced in against this range.

When I see a "call / 3 bet" line on a flop like this, my experience is that:

1. It's a monster, or
2. It's a big-equity draw type hand that wants to make sure he doesn't get priced out of the river

Given your description of V1 it's hard to put him on QQ given pre-flop action. 22 isn't out of the question, nor is 88 (although you have a blocker to that so only one pair). So I'd put him more heavily toward big clubs, maybe with a straight draw as well, or maybe Xc2c or something like it. I think it's a call.

I think u have to call. He's shown to be Aggro. Would prob reraise QQ pre. 88 is unlikely. U are prob racing so I think the odds are good enough. I wouldn't have raised the flop but don't necessarily hate it either. If he's on a FD you have 2 of his outs and if he has AQ you have 14 outs unless he had the A of clubs. If I had to guess a specific hand I'd say AcQx but this is read depended a lot too.

Wow, nice read sir. He told me after the session he had AcQx. I honestly didn't put him on that because I would expect him to 3b this pre. I also have trouble understanding his shove here as he really only has fold equity vs the exact hand I happened to have and only in combination of me being too fold-happy in this spot. He has no history that would make him have this read. I guess the Ac gave him the confidence to pull the trigger and in turn should have prompted me to call. I put him on AcTc and should have called. Thanks for the input everyone.

It really sucks to feel outplayed at 1/2.

Why do you expect villain to 3 bet AQo pre vs. an open raise in EP from a tight player?

Grunch:

I'm not really a big fan of calling preflop, but it wouldn't be a thread if you didn't.

Raising into the face of two described decent players probably isn't a good move. I doubt you had very much FE. Once V2 back raises, you are certainly toast. You can't really count any outs as clean.

@spiker: I disagree that my hand does not lend itself well for calling pre on the btn so am intrigued as to why you think it's not a good call pre.

The reason I posted this hand is because it looked and felt like he has a monster but it contradicted with the range I had assigned to him and it confused me. Which hands do you think he holds where I am "toast"?

@rumor: I agree, my assumption seems to have been a mistake. I thought he would simply continue to 3b as much as he did before. I didn't rule it out entirely but wasn't weighing towards that holding (which seems contradictory because then I should really hace called it off)...

you're not really deep to the point where calling pre is going to be profitable. You've described them both as at least decent players which means your implied odds aren't great. You also need to have initiative with suited connectors to show profit because you need to be getting folds really often. Your SPR on the flop is ~9 with V2 which isn't all that great. It's even worse with V1 who is really the more likely of the two to get it in. So, no initiative plus lower implied odds means probably not profitable. It's not the worst thing ever, just probably not good.

You're never much better than 50% against any part of his range. And significantly worse against whatever sets he may have. After you've raised you put yourself in a bad position of being priced in to call against a range that beats you by the river an awful lot. This is why I'm not really a fan of the preflop play because you put yourself in a tough situation on the flop.