Villain 1 (300+) late 20's whitey, TAG player; generally pretty solid.

Villain 2 (100) Tight passive hispanic guy.

Villain 3 (460) Against same villain as described in the thread linked below...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...hooks-1459778/

Villain 1 raises from UTG to 8. Villain 2 calls, folds to Hero on Button with KsKc who 3 bets to $25. Villain 3 calls from SB, BB folds, Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 folds.

Pot (84) Flop QdQh4d. Checks to Hero who bets $45.

Villain 3 calls, Villain 1 folds.

Pot (174) Turn Jh. Hero bets $115. Villain calls.

Pot (404) River 9h, Villain 3 shoves for $276.

Hero?

I would have raised a bit more pre, maybe $30 to $35.

AP, I would have be $60 ish on the flop, and shut down on turn and river. Your on the button right? Assuming V checked the J I would have checked back and Folded River.

V3 probably has a Q, KQ, AQ QJ.

Agreed on PF raise size. Normally I would have raised more (like $40), but was trying to induce a 4 bet from Villain 1.

Raise more pre, $37. Check the flop, you're probably only getting two streets on a paired board like this and you don't want to stack off if V puts the pressure on by bloating the pot on the flop. Turn is an awful card since TT probably folds and JJ got there, so you can really only beat AK and flush draws, but V shouldn't really have any FDs in his range. If you bet this flop and get raised, what's your plan for the rest of the hand?

Inducing a 4bet is never going to happen in $1/2.

As played, fold. You're running into AQ KQ or JJ. Flush and straight draws almost never do this even when they get there afraid of the boat at low limits.

You really need to raise more preflop; I would have raised to 40 or 45, expecting to get heads up on the flop. Also I'm going to assume you cover villains?

EDIT! My bad. Flop is Qh, 4h, 4d; not QQ4.

Normally I'd agree, but I have a lot of history with Villain 1.

Yeah I had about 580. Sorry I left that out. I'm really bad at this. Lol.

V probably still has a boat, you're just hoping he has AQ. If the turn wasn't a J I probably stack off, but his range calling from SB should be like all pocket pairs and AK/AQ/KQs. If he doesn't have a boat I'd be shocked since it looks like you have an overpair. Being 230bb deep is even more reason to check the flop since you're still only getting two streets unless V is an idiot.

Consider a table change if one villain is decent and another is good. Usually none of my villains are decent when I'm playing 1-2 NL.

If V is constantly shoving the river against you and you're constantly folding and you suspect that he's bluffing, KK is certainly a good hand with which to take a stand.

What does V see your pf 3-betting range as?

so there are 4 hearts on the board... fold

4 hearts.. yeah sucks but muck it and try again later... sorry

Argh, this is just like another hand where a guy had QQ overpair on a paired board and overplayed it.

Okay, so I'm not sure what the villain's range is exactly, but I don't think this is a spot where we have to even do that. This is one of those situations at the table where we just play on solid, straightforward principles.

Let's say you have KK and the flop comes out Q75. We bet and they call. Turn is another Q. Do you still bet here?

I sure as hell don't. This card makes me slow way down. A lot of their calling range is top pair which just improved to trips. The top card pairing is terrible for our overpair so I go into pot control mode at this point. No ranging/complex villain profiling is necessary here.

This hand is a similar situation. I'm happy to cbet this flop with an overpair. But once they call, I'm slowing the **** down.

Sure, they may have called us with JJ-77. But will those hands call 2 bets? Maybe, but unlikely. Will trip Q call two bets? Definitely. The flop didn't even have any draws that he called with. So when we bet the turn here, against many players we are making a negative value bet. Not a thin value bet, but a bet that loses us money. Even JJ (one of our targets) got there.

Okay so on the river 99 got there as well. I guess you want to call in case he spazzed with TT or 88? Backdoor hearts and gutshots (unlikely but who knows) got their as well. We beat nothing except bluffs here, and villains don't bluff enough at these stakes to make the call. Bad villains don't bluff enough, and good villains who do bluff are rarely bluffing in this spot into our likely trips when we look committed.

River is an easy fold.

The key street on this hand is the turn though.

This is a general truism for me in hold 'em:

When we hold an overpair and the top card is paired, we should check the turn.

Imo, this will make money for anyone who follows it. The only time I wouldn't check the turn would be if there was some unique dynamic between me and villain (villain is a spewy maniac; villain and I are in leveling wars and he's floating OOP, villain 3-bets AQ and can fold QJ to three barrels, etc.)

With 4 hearts on board and with you posting this hand...I'm assuming you folded and V showed you a bluff. This was well played by V. You would simply have to have JJ or AhQx to call here....anything else would be a crying call given your range, how the hand played out, and effective stack sizes.

Even though we know villain is capable of making a lot of moves and being very aggressive...a call here will simply never be a profitable decision. The reason being is that many times villain could be bluffing with the best hand (lower pair with heart, missed straight draw with a heart, etc...)

The mistake was clearly in betting this turn....should've checked. As played, folding is correct play on river.

Just 3 hearts on the board, OSU.

Extra note:

If I had KhKx (K of hearts now) in this hand...against described V, I would be making this call.

OP came back later and said the flop was Qh4hQd...turn heart....river heart.

Whoops I grunched and missed that.

It makes the turn even more of a check though.

Bummer that we could be clarkmeister'd here. But as you said, half of his underpair bluffs beat us anyway.

If we had checked the turn, I wonder how much we'd be willing to call on the river.

Okay and the Q wasn't paired. So with the new info I'm actually bet/folding both the flop and turn and calling a small river bet or checking the river back if he checks.

LOL! I completely butchered this post.

The board did not have 4 hearts, but 3. The Flop was Qd, 4d, 4h. Turn Jh. River 9h.

So while it did go runner runner for a straight and three hearts not to mention the paired board, it wasn't 4 hearts. All of the betting is exact though.

Any new thoughts?

Did I mention I suck at this part? Lol.

'Preciate the feedback.

Post your thread...then sit back and smoke. Not at the same time...that is my feedback.

Glad I can help....

I probably play it the same then and fold the river.

I think you can get 2 streets from Qx. You might get 3 streets from QJ, but anything more than 2 is optimistic.


as played, check/call, check/call, shove river is a pretty classic OOP "slow play" line with a monster. I think you are going to see QQ, JJ, QhXh a lot here, and a very rare KdTd

This but with the exception that we check turn rather than check flop. I agree that we are only getting 2 streets of value against worse but I think c bet is standard. Then checking back turn and evaluate river. If villan bets river I am calling depending on run out etc and if villian checks I am going for thin value. Our hand looks more like AK and we can get think value from under pairs.