1st post hopefully I do it right.

SB (Villian) $450
MP1 $180
MP2 $250
LP (Hero) $210 JJ

Villian is tight aggressive, hadn't seen him bluff. Usually shows a winner.
MP1 is tight aggressive
MP2 is loose aggressive
Hero usually loose aggressive but had tightened up today.

All are regulars to semi regulars, so we have all played togther at one point or another.

Preflop
MP1 Raises $7
MP2 Calls $7
Hero Raises to $25
SB (villian) Calls $25
MP1 Folds
MP2 Calls $25

Pot is $84

Flop 725

SB (Villian) Checks
MP2 checks
LP Hero bets $55

SB raises to $140

Hero?

This is a situation where you like to know your villain better.

Is he bad enough to set mine in a 3bet pot oop?
Can he semi-bluff c/r on the flop?
Would he flat AA or KK a 3bet?

Based on your read, I'd fold. However, the answers to the questions above could change my mind.

I'm coming from limit, where preflop is an auto-3bet. In NL, is simply calling preflop a horrible play?

tough spot. flatting the 140 would be the worst, leaving you 70 behind. so its either fold or shove.

pplayign 1/2 ive seen anything make this raise. 88- 1010 is definetly in his range. However, i feel qq+ is not, the majority of player will repop that preflop. especially if he is a TAG hes probably going to want to take down a pot with qq+ preflop since he is on the sb.

so... did he complete from sb with a hand like 57 suited? 55, 22, 77 i t hink are also in his range.

based on this, and the confusion, i fold.

ugh.

My assessment of villians range is AA/KK, set, or flush draw/combo draw, something like A3ss 45ss. I'd say AA/KK or a set are more likely for two reasons. First, he's more likely to call preflop with a pocket pair than with a SC or suited Ace, given your three-bet. Secondly, with a combo draw I'd think he'd just go ahead and shove to maximize his FE. The c/r to 140 looks like he wants a call (unless we're on some 2nd or 3rd level thinking here). In summary you're either drawing to 2 outs or fading 12-15 outs, with the former being more likely. Therefore I would fold.

I think so. The re-raise should drive out the truly bad hands which might be tempted to call $7 based on the pot odds they are being given so on a board like in OP, we can assume someone 'may' have hit a set but it's unlikely someone called $25 with 57o.

I agree with the analysis of the person who said QQ+ is unlikely.

However, I'm thinking what about a hand like AT-AQ spades. A re-raise by the nut flush draw with 2 overs makes alot of sense here and widens the range of hands the villain may have.

Personally, I shove and sob here.

It could be good depending on table conditions. I would not characterize it as horrible under almost any conditions. I'm quite certain flatting JJ here would net you a profit.

If there's a bunch of people who like to see flops you're probably better off getting value for it now and 3betting. Also shortens SPR so you don't have to fold as much.

Also, the better your hand reading and postflop skills the more often can play it for value UI. You are in position on the PFR afterall.

I've been flatting in this spot more and more recently. Though 3bet is still probably more common. I haz a pair!

Interesting analysis. I find that while table conditions certainly may change a 'standard' play, limping with JJ in this spot is just allowing anyone (and most bad NL players) a cheap look at a flop.

Imagine if you had just flatted in the OP example. How do you play that flop? Is 57 unlikely now? Is 68? I find the decisions I have to make much harder because I can't define my oppt's hand at all on the flop.

Its hard to make that choice without knowing who is left to act.

My thinking on this is similar to that of Phil Gordon's LGB example (ok, lol, HOC is in the mail and should be here any day now, whatever) where he coldcalls a raise with 99. Why perhaps take down a smallish pot now where we could instead set ourselves up for taking down a monster pot if we flop well? We're also going to be in position on at least a 3 way pot, where people will probably play fairly straighforwardly after the flop, and with JJ we're still gonna see a lot of favourable flops (although we will admittedly see a lotta sucky ones too). Plus it doesn't set ourselves up for folding preflop to a 4bet; we have to fold to a 4bet, don't we?

Course, I think I have to work on my image a bit more (playing fairly weak/tight right now in my early going) so I'm sure increasing my 3betting range is hardly a bad thing to do here either. Plus I'm thinking if there was like just one other caller that the pot is kinda getting biggish enough that we have no qualms about taking it down preflop uncontested.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Agreed but you can see my point. Flatting in MP or even LP with JJ's is just asking for a 4-6 way flop.. How many Q's, K's, A's are we trying to fade here

So at this point we're playing for set value, which is pretty much what we'd probably be doing with 99 here, no?

BTW: I know nothing about NL. I'm just trying to get opinions on various plays here. I mean, if everyone chimed in and said "lol, flatting JJ here is absolutely terrible" then I would now know better.

I think the pf raise is fine. You often steal the button and are ahead of MP1 and MP2 enough for this to make sense.

I don't think QQ+ is a big part of SB's range. If he's TAG, he has to 4-bet those hands with the original raiser and caller left to act. Otherwise, he's looking at playing 4-way OOP. The cold call of the 3-bet screams pp, big A or suited A (maybe even not that from a TAG). There may be other SCs in there too but nobody else is very deep so does he really want to play those?

Flop bet is good. You can't call the raise, obv. This is really close depending on whether you think he can do this with 88-TT as well as his sets and Axss. If he is a reg, is he capable of doing this with a small overpair or FD? If so, then I shove and probably shed a tear...

I find using Jacks to set mining to be a lot more profitable than trying to win a bunch of blinds. Much easier to play too.

QQs/KKs can easily be part of the villain's range here. (Moreso QQs than KKs)

Look at the effective stacks, what can the villain raise to? $75? $100?

That's essentially all in.

Interesting to see the comments. My initial thought was, that this is an easy push. pretty dry flop, your bet looks like a standard continuation bet, and if your analysis is correct of him being an aggressive player, then there is a good chance he has two overs, probably AK, or even a smaller pair that didn't make a set. but the common theme seems to be a tough fold. definantly food for thought.

Preflop is good. If you say no 3-bet, then what is your 3bet range?

I would bet closer to the size of the pot the first time. I'm OK with a shove. Becomes closer to a fold the more you discount TT-88. With hero having a LAG image in the past, villain may be capitalizing with the mid pocket pair. I would also discount AA-KK, but not necessarily QQ. Him 4-betting QQ could set up a gross decision on An A/K flop or he could have the "I won't get called by worse, only better" type of thinking going on

We lose to:
77,55,22 (9 combos)
AA-QQ (18 combos)


We're in good enough shape against:
AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, KQs (5 combos)
TT-88 (18 combos)
JJ (1 combo)

Interesting point, can you explain a little more? I thought that calling here w/QQ and getting a caller or two behind put us in a pretty bad spot where others get to play perfectly against us while we have to play OOP. If we are SB, what is our plan for the flop? Do we lead into low cards, like this flop, c/r the person who 3-bet pre? Shut down if an A or K hits? It just seems that effective stacks and position dictate getting it in now.

I could be doing it wrong.

I flat pre and play it like a medium pocket.

As played, it depends on what villains range is. Against an unknown TAG I assume any pp is in his range, except for AA and KK. Also, probably AK and AQs are.

Depending on my perceived 3-bet range I fold or shove here. If my perceived 3-bet range is like JJ+,AQs+,AKo I fold, because villain will not shove 88-TT against this range that often. If my perceived range includes 88-TT and AJs+,AQo it's much closer.

Then again, most villains don't think in terms of perceived ranges. The average 1/2 player would probably just call 88 and 99 here, because he "wants to be careful in case of an overpair". Given that tendency I would fold here in the absence of any further information.

PF you played it fine. I would also bet this flop. Now your opponent cold called before the flop and then gets it in on a seven high flop. I am thinking he has a pocket pair. But which pocket pair...

would he really flat a big pair and let others in... could he have cold called and hit a set... pehaps.

I would go all in here, as I expect 88, 99 and 1010 to be a decent pair of his range.

I definitely will push here some of the time, especially with all that dead money, but we cant discount the fact villain does not have QQs. Its possible SB is going for the lower variance play, calling to see the flop cheap ($18), and putting it all in if theres no A or K shutting down otherwise. Or even calling hoping the original raiser might pop it up.

Many players are not willing to commit 100BB with QQs.. especially if they only have 1 BB invested.