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Old 10-09-2013, 03:13 AM   #1
JKingoff
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1/2 NL, How bad is this?

Hey guys, 1/2 NL..

Villain 1 Utg+1 (84 effective stack) is a tight old guy
Hero is MP with KK (550) Tag
Villain 2 Otb (450) Tag

V1 limps, Hero raises to 12, V2 3-bets to 32. V1 calls, Hero calls (I obviously would normally put in a big 4-bet here. But for some reason decided to flat pre to disguise the strength of my hand.)

Flop 787

V1 ships his remaining 52. Hero calls (again I would almost always re-pop it here, but decide to be tricky with V2 left to act.) V2 then goes all-in over the top for 350. Hero??

Hero tank folds. V1 shows JJ, V2 shows QQ and wins the pot.

I think I messed this hand up pretty bad. Thoughts?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:33 AM   #2
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4bet pre. He's not 5betting anything but aces this deep

Defines his range better, gets V1 all in, and makes post easier to play
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:40 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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Originally Posted by JKingoff View Post
Hey guys, 1/2 NL..

Villain 1 Utg+1 (84 effective stack) is a tight old guy
Hero is MP with KK (550) Tag
Villain 2 Otb (450) Tag

V1 limps, Hero raises to 12, V2 3-bets to 32. V1 calls, Hero calls (I obviously would normally put in a big 4-bet here. But for some reason decided to flat pre to disguise the strength of my hand.)

Flop 787

V1 ships his remaining 52. Hero calls (again I would almost always re-pop it here, but decide to be tricky with V2 left to act.) V2 then goes all-in over the top for 350. Hero??

Hero tank folds. V1 shows JJ, V2 shows QQ and wins the pot.

I think I messed this hand up pretty bad. Thoughts?
1.) Don't give results.

2.) You disguise your hand...but to what end? The line you take is not bad if you know why you are taking it. In this case, we are trying to get V2 to underestimate our potential holdings...and he does. So why fold? You have exhibited very little strength, and V2 only has one hand in his 3b range (AA) that would have us beat here.
Snap call. If he has AA, so be it.

Last edited by BigSkip; 10-09-2013 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:45 AM   #4
JKingoff
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

^ Right, at 1/2 NL there is really no reason to be tricky. Shouldn't be concerned about playing your hand face up, because most villians aren't thinking too deeply. As played though, post-flop is this a bad fold?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:53 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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^ Right, at 1/2 NL there is really no reason to be tricky. Shouldn't be concerned about playing your hand face up, because most villians aren't thinking too deeply. As played though, post-flop is this a bad fold?
I believe so.
Let me say I don't mind not 4betting KK here, as we want to keep his dominated hands (AK/QQ/JJ) in play. If we 4bet we will likely fold out what we do beat (JJ/QQ/AK) and end up getting 5bet by AA.

When we flat and take this passive line, we allow our villain to make big mistakes with those hands. His shove is a little scary due to our stack size, but we have under repped our hand so severely that in effect we have gotten exactly what we wanted.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:53 AM   #6
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Of course it's a bad fold. There are no 7s in his 3 bet range. There is one hand that beats you (AA). You beat QQ, JJ, 1010, the occasional 99, and AK spades. Why disguise your hand if you're going to play it like 22?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:56 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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Originally Posted by BigSkip View Post
1.) Don't give results.

2.) You disguise your hand...but to what end? The line you take is not bad if you know why you are taking it. In this case, we are trying to get V2 to underestimate our potential holdings...and he does. So why fold? You have exhibited very little strength, and V2 only has one hand in his 3b range (AA) that would have us beat here.
Snap call. If he has AA, so be it.
1.) don't give results--got it thanks, first time posting a hh itt.

2.) I was not expecting V2 to spazz out on the flop. I leveled myself into thinking he must have AA.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:12 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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I believe so.
Let me say I don't mind not 4betting KK here, as we want to keep his dominated hands (AK/QQ/JJ) in play. If we 4bet we will likely fold out what we do beat (JJ/QQ/AK) and end up getting 5bet by AA.

When we flat and take this passive line, we allow our villain to make big mistakes with those hands. His shove is a little scary due to our stack size, but we have under repped our hand so severely that in effect we have gotten exactly what we wanted.
This...It was such a big overbet that I thought I could get away and look for a better spot. (Which I did btw ) I don't see myself taking this passive line again anytime in the near future, because honestly it confused the crap out of me. Lesson learned.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:26 AM   #9
peac b the journey
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Listen. You did everything right. V1 does not matter all... You must realize given v2s stack size and way he played his hand you have him beat. He's replying huge strength.. Only way he wins is if he has AA.. And that's a cooler .. Even if he does we all know that's a cooler ESP the way you played your hand... My guess is your new to the game and short money. Don't let the mistake happen again. You played it great until the fold
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:29 AM   #10
peac b the journey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKingoff View Post
1.) don't give results--got it thanks, first time posting a hh itt.

2.) I was not expecting V2 to spazz out on the flop. I leveled myself into thinking he must have AA.
Lol yeah what he said...... Stop being so scared yo... After all you're in the game you could always lose... And sometimes you should playing optimally.. If e has AA you lose ... Bad fold! Lol for real doh just learn from it and make better in the future ... Your thoughts were correct
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

Thanks for the replies. Peac b, I am not new to the game nor am I short money. If anything, I am overrolled for 1/2 NL. I honestly don't think I was playing the hand scared. Simply was trying to make the best decision in a tough spot. Obviously, in hindsight that did not happen.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:39 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

I play it the same exact way this deep except i fIst pump call flop.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:55 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

NH. Underolled player would find a fold here. As played, you kept his range wide and you are playing almost at the top of yours. Unless you have a soulread here, you have to put vil on the same range as you did PF. You only lose to 1 of the 4-5 hands you can put him on here,

Next time, try to schmooze him up a little after he jams. Tell him you have kk, see how he acts. Might help you get the read you need.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:14 PM   #14
metdude3128
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

I just think "getting tricky" in 1/2 never works out well.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:25 PM   #15
ManikMarlin
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

Not a terrible fold really, just the price for playing tricky. Obviously he has more than AA in his range but not a ton more, he's not on a draw but puts you on one so he has what, JJ+? Not optimal result but I think you're right to figure you can find a better spot.

I wouldn't even take this play out of your arsenal but perhaps adjust based on stacks still to act.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:30 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

You folded the best hand after the fact...so what? At least you had the discipline to fold KK, when you thought you were beat. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:44 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

this is not a snap are you people serious
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:54 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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Originally Posted by SuqAta8 View Post
this is not a snap are you people serious
Snap call as played.
Only reasonable hand in the range that can beat us is AA, and we have exhibited zero strength in the hand. Based on how we have played the hand, our villain should expect he is ahead of our range with TT+.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:18 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

I don't think the problem was that you played too tricky, but that you put too much money in the pot without being committed. I think PF was ok, but you shouldn't have called V1's all-in without being willing to call V2 if he goes all-in.

As played, you should call the all-in. You are getting 1.8:1 pot odds and have 1:1 equity (assuming V1 has a range of TT-QQ/AQ+ and V2 has a range of JJ+/AK+). Of course, if you have a positive enough read that V2 has AA, then maybe you should fold...
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:26 PM   #20
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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Next time, try to schmooze him up a little after he jams. Tell him you have kk, see how he acts. Might help you get the read you need.
Please not this.

Being a douch in life is not the answer. Play your hand, use your reads, but for the sake of future karma at the least, if not respect for your fellow players, don't "schmooze" anyone for info. This whole "flip your hand and get a read" is totally lame IMO. And I've yet to meet anyone who played it that I would like to know outside of poker.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:03 AM   #21
SunChips
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

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Please not this.

Being a douch in life is not the answer. Play your hand, use your reads, but for the sake of future karma at the least, if not respect for your fellow players, don't "schmooze" anyone for info. This whole "flip your hand and get a read" is totally lame IMO. And I've yet to meet anyone who played it that I would like to know outside of poker.
How does this equate to being a douche in life? There is nothing wrong with talking to an opponent to try to pick up some info. It's not something that should be done very often, but if you are in a situation where it's 50% call 50% fold, that little bit of information could mean the difference between making a good/bad call/fold.

Trying to pick up tells by talking to someone isn't a douche thing like slowrolling someone to tilt them. Both can give you an edge, but i'll never do the latter. As far as poker karma goes, shmoozing doesn't get any negative points.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:56 AM   #22
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

You exhibited weakness preflop, when you over-called the 3bet in a 3-way pot. You made it look like you had a speculative hand, playing for pot odds.

You exhibited weakness postflop, when you just called v1's all in. You made it look like you were on a draw or wanted to control the pot size, and check it down with V2.

V2 easily has any overpair that he might 3-bet pre. Even if his range is JJ+, with no AK in there, you are +EV to call. If his range is exactly QQ-AA, you're 50/50. But 9's and T's could even be in his range.

Get it the hell in. If you've thought of all this already, it's a snap call. If you haven't thought of it, sit there and think about how much strength you've projected, realize these things, then call.

Edit: or, tl;dr,


Last edited by corlath; 10-10-2013 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:13 AM   #23
JKingoff
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Thanks for all the replies. After having a day to think about the hand, I'm ok folding this spot. A call would have obviously been better, but I was near 100 percent sure villain 2 had either exactly AA or QQ, just wasn't sure which one. One of the best pieces of advice I received from a very good player was this; if you're confused or not sure where you are at in a big pot, its almost always better to make a mistake folding than to make a mistake and lose your stack playing deep.
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:16 AM   #24
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

Why fold...maybe 1% of 1/2 players would ever 3 bet a 7x hand or 88.

Real bad.
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:16 AM   #25
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Re: 1/2 NL, How bad is this?

Well if you put him on AA/KK/QQ it's an easy call.

I don't think I have to explain why.
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