I read this forum almost religiously, but I think this is my first post, so bare with me...

Playing 1/2 at Foxwoods on 4th of July mid day. Max buy in is $300.

Villian 1 (BB) has a stack of $140ish. 20's asian. Definitely a rec. player, been very talkative at the table. Made some very bad calls with medium strength hands.

Villain 2 (HJ) has a stack of $400ish. Late 20's black guy. Been very quiet at the table. Definitely doesn't play too often. Bought in for $200, doubled up recently when he flopped the nuts. Seems very tight passive. Only raises with the goods.

Hero (UTG+1) covers both. Stack of $550ish. Hero is mid 20's asian. Image is probably a little LAG but I don't think either villain thinks to that level really.

Hero opens to $12 with AQ Two villains call, everyone else folds. Pot is $34.

Flop comes KJ10

Hero flops stone cold nuts. Villain 1 donks for $15. With a rainbow board, I didn't want to push anyone out of the hand so I flat. Villain 2 Bumps it up to $65. Villain 1 calls after about 10-15 seconds. I figure V2 has two pair or a set here. He was very tight passive and probably wouldn't 3bet 10s or Js preflop (they're at least in his range, along w/ KJ, K10, J10, AK). He wouldn't raise a draw. He might raise AK.

I figure V1 probably has two pair or KQ/JQ/10Q/AK here. To lead $15 and then call $50 more, I assume he hit the flop pretty hard. He has committed half his stack at this point.

Hero's hand is really under-repped here. I think about raising, but again, with the rainbow board, there just aren't very many bad turn cards for me. I feel like raising here looks super strong and pretty much turns my hand face up. I decide to flat the $65 with the intention of check raising V2 on any turn cards that don't pair the board. There are only 9 cards to pair the board, but I figured 3 or 4 of them are in Villains' hands. So I figure I'm really trying to fade 5 or 6 cards on the turn.

Pot is $227.

Turn card is K of course.

Villain 1 donks all in for $60. Because it's so small, I decide to flat. V2 insta-shoves his remaining $300+ all in. I insta-fold.

Standard? Should I have folded to the first bet on the turn? Would most people raise the flop when it came back around? I just felt like 80-85% of the time, that turn is going to brick and it's going to be much easier to get stacks in on the turn when my hand would be reaaaaally under-repped. Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated.

3 way pot in a 3b pot, I will def get it in here the second time around. They are rec players like you say, one of them are not folding! Esp the 3bettor on the flop!

Raise the $15 on the flop, failing that, raise the $65 on the flop.

They're obviously interested in the hand on the flop, and you've got the nuts. Get as much money into the pot as soon as you can. RAISE THE FLOP. I'd usually raise V1's $15 on the flop, unless I see V2 getting ready to raise (look left!), then I'd flat/raise him right then and there. In that case I'm tempted to make the redonkulous overbet shove on the flop and try to look like I'm bluffing. $200 straight comes to mind, but $165 is also workable. Either way you have an easy shove on a good turn.


The turn is a weird spot, since you've basically just called every time you've faced a bet you're somewhat under-repping your hand. But a lot of fish will actually suspect a slowplay of a monster here (because that's what THEY'D do). Hard to say for sure. I can't see ever getting into this spot since I'd be raising the flop but ...

I HATE calling the $60 without a plan for the likely shove behind. It doesn't matter what our decision ends up being, we should have made it before putting chips into the pot.


V2 could have AK that thought he was ahead on the flop and just improved to trips. KQ is possible if he likes betting with a OESD+pair. You can't forget the chance that he has AQ and we're chopping, or Q9s. He called a standard open from the HJ, so if KT is in his range Q9s should be too. Those hands make perfect sense on the flop, and a little less on the turn.

The problem is that you played so passively, and so scared, that I'm sure the V could sense that you didn't like your hand. If you're instamucking it's usually painfully obvious you hate the spot. So he could be a little wider than a boat here. It won't be nothing since he still has to beat V1 though.

It's a gross spot and I hate calling the $60 just to fold to the shove. But based on the action on the flop I expect V2 to shove 80% of the time here. It's too late at night to count combos for how often we need to be ahead to call the shove here, but I don't think we have enough equity to do it. Fold.

Gross spot.

OP, against tight-passive players, I probably keep raising the flop action. They have a good piece and they're not letting go.

But against better players, I think your line is just ok. I just don't usually like playing anything slow. Though I agree that there are not that many scare cards.

When V2 shoves, I guess you have to go with your read here. Since the pot is like $600 with just $300 to call. At LLSNL, folding in this situation is probably correct, given that Villain's probably are not value betting worse, and usually just are not bluffing enough.

But you have to convince yourself that he will not play [Q9, AK, KQ, AA] like this.

Tough spot, but I think its probably a fold.

Just remember against good players... That flatting raises in spots like this with players left to act behind you looks way stronger than just raising outright. So bump that flop next time.

haha I did have a plan for what to do if V2 shoves on the turn (hence the insta-fold).

Is calling the original $60 all in the only play on the turn? Does anyone find a fold w/ V2 lurking behind, even though it's $60 into a pot of $287?

As mentioned, I'd have raised the flop for sure. After the 65, that's re-pot/shove territory. You have the nuts, go for the stacks. At minimum here you are getting the shorter stack in no matter what you do, and based on your description of V2, I think he stacks off here a good portion of the time.

For the ranges, I'd entirely rule out KK on the flop. Even JJ would seem weakly played, but you state that it's possible. TT seems like the most likely of the sets, but is far from a guarantee.

Based on the range you are giving them though, you have to fold the turn if you aren't going to get it in. You just put one of them on a set and another on a 2 pair type hand, and both got there if you were right. To win this hand, you have to be wrong about both of them. This is a fold or shove scenario.

Get it in when you are ahead on the flop and maybe fold out a hand from V2 that could get there, or get a call when you are way ahead. Now, you might potentially have gotten coolered that way, but, it's still correct and it offers you protection for when V2 does this with AK or AQ on this turn.

The biggest argument for getting it in on the flop isn't just that you have the nuts, but that you prevent yourself from folding to hands that are willing to go the distance but need 2 cards to draw out on you. While I agree with your fold, I would not at all be surprised to find you folded to AK and KQ or something along those lines.

I think all of your reasoning is very good here. That said, I'd likely just have pushed on the flop, expecting the tight guy to fold and the short stack to call. That way you can win about $225 (the $160 in the pot plus a call for another $65ish from short stack), with lesser risk of an outdraw.

Instead, you are risking losing the pot + whatever you'll call against what could be a wide range of sets/two pair hands. (TT, JJ, KK, JT, KJ, KT). You don't know exactly what you are trying to fade here. Any of nine T, J or K is scary (even though some are in their hands, as you say). Plus you will sometimes make a mistaken fold. For example, say the tight guy here actually had AK, top pair and a gutshot, against a loose bad player and a caller on the flop, which improved to top trips, top kicker on the turn? Would he ever push with that? Impossible to say never for sure, right? Or another AQ for a chop?

It's quite a gamble, and it assumes you are playing for his entire stack when the board does blank off. Say the turn card is innocuous and it is checked to you. Now you check, and tight guy bets $100. Loose guy calls all in, and you now c/r push. Will tight guy always call? If not, you are sometimes getting less reward for the risk of calling on the flop.

That advice is a little more general for some of the wtf spots we see on the forum. I think I might fold to the $60. It's not just the bet though. It's our read on V2 behind us, does he look ready to call or raise? Is he excited about the turn? I don't like to suggest too much of a decision based on a live read, and I don't want to spend too much time LOOKING at the guy (makes it obvious what you're doing), but if I see him ready to fire when I look left I can eject here.

Tough spot. Understand your choice of flatting the flop, but agree with the rest that the majority of the time you want to raise it up here.

On the turn: tough card. I still feel you probably have 40-50% equity in this hand. There are the KJ, K10, 1010, JJ, combos which have you beat, and their hands likely have a decent proportion of trip K hands that are ready to get it in here, I'd assume their range was close to: {AK, AQ, KQ, KJ, K10, 1010+}

I would feel pretty sick about it but would probably give it up here since there are two of them and V2 has been playing very tight. You could shove on V1's 60 all-in, but you'd probably loose your stack half of the time. Calling the 60 is weak, You've got to know V2 is shoving you off that 60 80% of the time, I would say it is a -EV move. But at least you had a plan for responding to V2's shove.