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1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? 1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine?

03-14-2018 , 04:37 PM
1/2 NL, 10 handed, 10 minutes into session.

Hero (BTN, $250): For whatever reason villain views hero as an amazing card player. Hero is very humbled by this and likes to think he's one of the stronger players at the tables he plays at, but villain thinks WAY more of hero than hero's actual skill level, telling hero he has no business playing 1/2, etc. Hero has played one hand so far and it was vs same villain. Hero has in SB with Q9s and called in a 7 way pot, flopped an OESD, it was checking around, turned a straight, bet out $10, villain raised to $35, hero 3! to $95 considering there was a FD, and villain folded.

Villain (CO, $150): Villain views hero very highly as mentioned. Villain is generally tight and sways between tight and aggressive, but will occasionally play loose when on tilt. In multiway limped pots, he usually won't open unless he has 88+, AJs+, AQo+. Villain LOVES to bet out his aces, regardless of a 2 kicker or a K kicker. He usually goes with his aces all the way as well, but also seems to fold them almost every single time he's raised, unless he has AK, which he usually marries. Hero puts villain on an ace with a decent kicker that's a spade.

OTTH

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, HJ limps, villain limps, and hero looks up to K 3 and limps along, SB calls and BB checks.

Flop ($18) A 7 2

It's checked around to villain who bets $9. Hero just calls, and as mentioned earlier puts villain on an ace with a decent kicker that's a spade, not wanting to scare anyone out, and has the nuts. Everyone else folds.

Turn ($36) 6. Villain bets $10, and it crushes hero that he bet such a small amount, but knows a raise will almost surely take villain out of the pot, so he's hoping that villain either rivers the flush or hits two pair/trips and just calls.

River ($56) 3. Villain bets $12 and hero raises to $40.

Regardless of whether villain folded, called, or raised, did I play this hand awful or would you say it's acceptable?

Side note: HUMONGOUS thank you to sincerely to the 2 + 2 community. I truly couldn't fathom a year ago how much I would learn from this unbelievably awesome community. You guys rock and have helped transform me into the player I am today, and I know I will only make more strides thanks to you!!!
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
1/2 NL, 10 handed, 10 minutes into session.

Hero (BTN, $250): For whatever reason villain views hero as an amazing card player. Hero is very humbled by this and likes to think he's one of the stronger players at the tables he plays at, but villain thinks WAY more of hero than hero's actual skill level, telling hero he has no business playing 1/2, etc. Hero has played one hand so far and it was vs same villain. Hero has in SB with Q9s and called in a 7 way pot, flopped an OESD, it was checking around, turned a straight, bet out $10, villain raised to $35, hero 3! to $95 considering there was a FD, and villain folded.

Villain (CO, $150): Villain views hero very highly as mentioned. Villain is generally tight and sways between tight and aggressive, but will occasionally play loose when on tilt. In multiway limped pots, he usually won't open unless he has 88+, AJs+, AQo+. Villain LOVES to bet out his aces, regardless of a 2 kicker or a K kicker. He usually goes with his aces all the way as well, but also seems to fold them almost every single time he's raised, unless he has AK, which he usually marries. Hero puts villain on an ace with a decent kicker that's a spade.

OTTH

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, HJ limps, villain limps, and hero looks up to K 3 and limps along, SB calls and BB checks.

Flop ($18) A 7 2

It's checked around to villain who bets $9. Hero just calls, and as mentioned earlier puts villain on an ace with a decent kicker that's a spade, not wanting to scare anyone out, and has the nuts. Everyone else folds.

Turn ($36) 6. Villain bets $10, and it crushes hero that he bet such a small amount, but knows a raise will almost surely take villain out of the pot, so he's hoping that villain either rivers the flush or hits two pair/trips and just calls.

River ($56) 3. Villain bets $12 and hero raises to $40.

Regardless of whether villain folded, called, or raised, did I play this hand awful or would you say it's acceptable?

Side note: HUMONGOUS thank you to sincerely to the 2 + 2 community. I truly couldn't fathom a year ago how much I would learn from this unbelievably awesome community. You guys rock and have helped transform me into the player I am today, and I know I will only make more strides thanks to you!!!
Hey sixsevenoff, never posted in one of your threads but here I go.

Preflop: eh. I can go either way here. This is for sure an ambitious limp, but with a lot of players and good position, it can't be a big loser if at all.

I like flop as played but I'd raise turn and hope villain levels himself into thinking you're trying to pounce on a weak sizing. If villain has that much respect for your game, it seems like he's either trying to showdown cheap or can potentially level himself into thinking you're making a play at him.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 07:56 PM
Flop is fine, turn is must raise.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 08:10 PM
Yeah, I understand your reasoning on the turn, but this is still the spot for a small raise. The small turn bet means one of two things:

(1) He doesn't have much, figures you're ahead of him, and is looking to fold. If that's the case, you don't lose much value here, because he was never going to play a big pot with you here anyway.

(2) He's betting small because he thinks he has a monster. QJs/Q10s/Q9s. He's hoping that you'll raise his weak bet so he can reraise with his flopped flush. (That's not the best thinking, but if he gets married to TPTK AK hands, then he definitely also gets married to flopped flushes.)

Under either of these scenarios, a fourth spade kills your action. So raise small on the turn, let him talk himself into a sigh-call in scenario 1, let him repop you in scenario 2.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 08:13 PM
Pre is fine. You can limp a lot of hands on the button in a multiway pot, and this is certainly one of them.

I can get behind a flop raise. Flop raises tend to look more like draws. Flatting is OK given that you've got the whole table to try and catch, but honestly if they are calling $9 they are probably calling $20. I want to try and build a pot now before another spade comes and kills all action, or try to extract from someone looking to hit with the Queen.

You need to raise that turn. Even clicking it back $10 is better than calling. V has basically said you aren't winning much money off of me this hand. But at least get something from him.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 09:02 PM
Preflop is fine. I could make a case for raising to $18 but also a case for folding. It's a pretty marginal spot.

Flop is always a call. I'd raise weaker flushes but never the nut flush.

Turn is a raise. $30. We're unlikely to get much more value off villain anyway, but this at least gives us a fighting chance.

As played, river is a raise and I like the sizing too.

On a different note: there's a bit of irrelevant information here that unnecessarily clogs up the thread. For example, you went into a lot of detail about villain's perception of you when you could've simply said "villain perceives me as solid". You also could've just said "villain makes thin value bets with TPWK hands" instead of being oddly specific about his Aces. Remember that your goal is to lump villain into a certain category. Keep it simple and concise.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-14-2018 , 09:17 PM
Agree with most posters, you need to build a pot. I don't love the check/call on the flop, I think check/call, lead on the turn looks stronger to most V's than bet/bet flop and turn. Also you can control sizing better without revealing much on hand strength. I'd have led $12 or so on the flop, 3/4 or so on the turn and if we got to the river I'd tank for a minute then shove.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 09:57 AM
Pre is not just fine, it is pretty auto if you want to play a LAG style and see as many flops as possible (I do so). In fact, in some cases I might even raise this from the button if I feel like I can fold out a bunch of players and if I seem to have some control over the table.

Flop is fine. Turn could be a raise but I understand why you just called.

To me, I would shove river. It looks really bluffy given your line throughout and if V calls a shove even 25% of the time, you make more than if he calls the $40 100% (which he won't). Only thing you lose is potentially the value of showing K3ss, but I think you can make up for that in later hands where you are bluffing with the same type of hand.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo
Agree with most posters, you need to build a pot. I don't love the check/call on the flop, I think check/call, lead on the turn looks stronger to most V's than bet/bet flop and turn. Also you can control sizing better without revealing much on hand strength. I'd have led $12 or so on the flop, 3/4 or so on the turn and if we got to the river I'd tank for a minute then shove.
I can't do that being on the BTN; I'm literally last to act on every street.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Hey sixsevenoff, never posted in one of your threads but here I go.

Preflop: eh. I can go either way here. This is for sure an ambitious limp, but with a lot of players and good position, it can't be a big loser if at all.

I like flop as played but I'd raise turn and hope villain levels himself into thinking you're trying to pounce on a weak sizing. If villain has that much respect for your game, it seems like he's either trying to showdown cheap or can potentially level himself into thinking you're making a play at him.
I didn't think of it like that, in regards to making a turn raise that he'll think I'm making a move on him. That is a good line of thinking, and while I fully believed a flop/turn raise, regardless of size, would result in a snap fold, every street's raise would likely result in the same so I agree now that the turn was a good time to put in a raise.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierradave
Yeah, I understand your reasoning on the turn, but this is still the spot for a small raise. The small turn bet means one of two things:

(1) He doesn't have much, figures you're ahead of him, and is looking to fold. If that's the case, you don't lose much value here, because he was never going to play a big pot with you here anyway.

(2) He's betting small because he thinks he has a monster. QJs/Q10s/Q9s. He's hoping that you'll raise his weak bet so he can reraise with his flopped flush. (That's not the best thinking, but if he gets married to TPTK AK hands, then he definitely also gets married to flopped flushes.)

Under either of these scenarios, a fourth spade kills your action. So raise small on the turn, let him talk himself into a sigh-call in scenario 1, let him repop you in scenario 2.
Good points. You are absolutely right.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7
Pre is not just fine, it is pretty auto if you want to play a LAG style and see as many flops as possible (I do so). In fact, in some cases I might even raise this from the button if I feel like I can fold out a bunch of players and if I seem to have some control over the table.

Flop is fine. Turn could be a raise but I understand why you just called.

To me, I would shove river. It looks really bluffy given your line throughout and if V calls a shove even 25% of the time, you make more than if he calls the $40 100% (which he won't). Only thing you lose is potentially the value of showing K3ss, but I think you can make up for that in later hands where you are bluffing with the same type of hand.
Don't you think shoving the river ($126 into $68) is a little bit too big of an overbet? I also personally don't think this villain in particular is calling unless he flopped the flush too, which I think is highly unlikely. I agree that it does look extremely bluffy, but he'd be the type to say "nice bluff kid, I know this is probably good *shows ace*."
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
Don't you think shoving the river ($126 into $68) is a little bit too big of an overbet? I also personally don't think this villain in particular is calling unless he flopped the flush too, which I think is highly unlikely. I agree that it does look extremely bluffy, but he'd be the type to say "nice bluff kid, I know this is probably good *shows ace*."
I don't especially since you said he can get married to AK. And he does have a lot of flushes in his range too since you only hold one high spade. I think it is worth a shot.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-15-2018 , 03:55 PM
I'm min-raising V all 3 streets, pretending to be ******ed, drinking beer and doing table chit-chat.

I honestly think that's the best way to get money into this pot, because if he folds at any point to a real raise, the pot is going to be so small after rake as to be generally inconsequential to my win rate.

You played it fine, OP.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-16-2018 , 04:39 PM
Spoiler:
Villain snap folds, shows an ace and says "I kinda figured you flopped the flush after you called my second bet kid. My only hope was you had the K and were drawing."
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-16-2018 , 05:02 PM
I think you should raise flop if you put him on an A with a spade kicker. Many players will talk themselves into a call here thinking they are either ahead of your draw or they have a winning draw themselves.

Even if another spade hits you really can't win a big pot since you have the K and I doubt he gets to crazy even if he has the Q.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-22-2018 , 10:50 PM
I would just over min-raise flop repping your hand to a thinking player like you have the naked Ks.

Check back turn.

Over bet river repping a busted flush draw.

I think its the best strat vs. a medium strength hand. If V has like Q or J high flush the money is going in no matter what.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-23-2018 , 01:11 AM
I tend to treat very small bets as a check and then bet if I was going to and generally call if not. On that basis, I raise turn here...we have to build a pot and if villain doesn’t have much, oh well we weren’t getting much more anyway.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-23-2018 , 09:34 AM
I'm raising flop here almost always. Doesn't need to be big, make it like 25 or 30 total. Then you've built a pot and can actually get stacks in.

If villain has anything remotely strong, like 2p+, he's most likely going to call. If he's weak with like only top pair no kicker or redraw, you're going to win the minimum anyways, so might as well raise.

Turn raises tend to be pretty strong. I find that's how a lot of players play their nut flushes, so I'd actually like a turn raise as a semi bluff than for value.

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1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote
03-23-2018 , 12:21 PM
Raise flop. Check turn. Barrel big on the river to look as bluffy as possible. It’s hard to flop a flush.
1/2 NL Flopping the nuts vs reg. Did hero butcher every street, or did he play it fine? Quote

      
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