My comments in this thread are about as accurate and perfect as they come. I don't think it's possible to have made my point any better about our win-percentage when called after several people stated it as being "55-60%", which is completely and utterly wrong. Instead of saying something ambiguous, tell us what I said that doesn't make sense.

I didn't tell him to buy in short or play at a game with a short max buy in. I can't change his buy in during this question. I can only answer regarding the actual situation. Ergo, I didn't tell him to play the small SC for 16% of his stack. Deepstacked, the hand is playable. Here, not so much, but what can I tell you, not everyone wants to fold for two hours straight.

This is just borderline ******ed.

LOL this thread just keeps getting better.

OK:

This. This doesn't make sense. Playing poker is about putting the money in when it is +EV to do so and folding when it is -EV.

If you find it difficult to avoid putting money in the pot when it's -EV to do so, then I hope you have a job to fund your poker hobby. IOW, you are welcome at my poker table any time.

That being said, I do make plays that I know are -EV. Yes, it's a leak. Yes, I know I should play better and make fewer mistakes. I am no more immune to it than the next human. But that doesn't justify the play even a little bit.

I'm actually a solid, winning player who has no problems affording my hobby. You can read my posts here and check my advice and knowledge of the game out if you like anytime. I'm quite certain I'm a much better poster than you are. Sometimes people want to have fun at the table and do things other than robotically sit around and run 12/9, the guy isn't the antichrist because he opted to play 87s when it didn't fit the 2p2 TAG Bible. I don't do this stuff because I'm not in cash games with 33xBB stacks. OP, shouldn't have been, but he is, and he decided to get frisky with a SC. Far from the biggest leak in the world. Besides, he asked about the flop (it admittedly wasn't much of a question), and he can't go back and change preflop, so there isn't too much point in discussing it over and over.

I actually don't know if OP mentioned it yet, too lazy to go back and look, but I don't yet see the reason for the shortstack. Does he like to shortstack? Did he take a beat three minutes before and not reload? Is $100 the max at that room?

And I'm quite certain that regardless of how many posts you have or how good of a poker player you are, you are without a doubt an arrogant ass.

You may be a winner at poker but you are a loser at life and that's a far more important skill.

Stoving the flop vs 99+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQ (a reasonable range I believe) sits us at ~56%, which is in the 55-60% ballpark I quickly estimated using the rule of 2/4. Having said that, I understand what you mean about this not being our winning percentage if our all-in is called (as obviously hands that are calling our all-in are weighted towards the stronger hands for this flop which we aren't doing nearly as well against, as you've documented). But we also have to take into account our check/raise takes down a decent sized pot (compared to our stack) against the weaker hands that will fold to the all-in (which we thus win 100% of the time against, with 8 high, not a bad result).

"We really don't have any other options, but that doesn't make this option a good one". I can't wrap my head around this statement. We have various choices here (fold, call, raise, all-in, check/all-in, etc.). We pick the best one. If you're agreeing that we don't really have any other choices here, then the intrinsic "goodness" of a move seems rather irrelevant.

We've pretty much beat the horse to death a few times on this one, so I'm just gonna let it go. We all have threads where we kinda lose our way (me probably being near the top of that list). No worries.

I'm actually completely in agreement about the arrogant ass part.
I'm pretty good and successful at life, although if your "life" reference was to my attitude towards people on this site like you, hey, guilty as charged.

I mean, I hate to keep this going, but this is irrelevant because it's completely opposite of the point I was trying to make. My comments, repeatedly, were that the hands that call us leave us way below 55%. You stuck hands into your example which aren't calling. KQo or AdTd aren't calling on a Jx9h6h flop. I posted figures above for hands that are a lock to call (and could easily be out there)

Op, it has been mentioned a few times, but I just want to add on what others have said. SC's can be some of the "funnest" hands to play, but you need to be careful how and when you play them. They are most profitable in a big pot built by multiple players. You can justify a call here pf with 4+ players in the pot, maybe even with your stack size (very debatable), but not HU. You really should be folding here pf. As played, the ideal situation imo is to crai the flop. However you gotta be really confident that the villain will bet the flop. You want the money in before the turn. If you have reason to believe he may check behind you otf, then you're shove isn't terrible.


A previous poster had said there was $16 + $2 + $1 in the pot, but it is actually $16 + $16 + $2 +1, so with your stack, you'd be happy picking up over $30 right there, and with that flop you're happy if he calls.

As far as the guy who doesn't need books and doesn't go all in on draws, I hope to play at your table often.

Op, it has been mentioned a few times, but I just want to add on what others have said. SC's can be some of the "funnest" hands to play, but you need to be careful how and when you play them. They are most profitable in a big pot built by multiple players. You can justify a call here pf with 4+ players in the pot, maybe even with your stack size (very debatable), but not HU. You really should be folding here pf. As played, the ideal situation imo is to crai the flop. However you gotta be really confident that the villain will bet the flop. You want the money in before the turn. If you have reason to believe he may check behind you otf, then you're shove isn't terrible.


A previous poster had said there was $16 + $2 + $1 in the pot, but it is actually $16 + $16 + $2 +1, so with your stack, you'd be happy picking up over $30 right there, and with that flop you're happy if he calls.

As far as the guy who doesn't need books and doesn't go all in on draws, I hope to play at your table often.

Op, it has been mentioned a few times, but I just want to add on what others have said. SC's can be some of the "funnest" hands to play, but you need to be careful how and when you play them. They are most profitable in a big pot built by multiple players. You can justify a call here pf with 4+ players in the pot, maybe even with your stack size (very debatable), but not HU. You really should be folding here pf. As played, the ideal situation imo is to crai the flop. However you gotta be really confident that the villain will bet the flop. You want the money in before the turn. If you have reason to believe he may check behind you otf, then you're shove isn't terrible.


A previous poster had said there was $16 + $2 + $1 in the pot, but it is actually $16 + $16 + $2 +1, so with your stack, you'd be happy picking up over $30 right there, and with that flop you're happy if he calls.

As far as the guy who doesn't need books and doesn't go all in on draws, I hope to play at your table often.

You're clearly not reading all of my post. I suggest you read my sentence after the sentence of mine you quoted (the one that starts with "Having said that"), in which I acknowledge and address everything you state here.

LOL.. Well, at least you are honest with yourself.

No I was actually referring to your attitude towards people in general. No one likes an arrogant ass, except maybe other arrogant asses.

But if you think you're smarter than me... shouldn't you have known that already?

Whoa this thread. OP, fold pre. Calling with full stack is fine, especially if you expect the btn/blinds to come in behind you (which at these stakes they often are). I'm a bit confused by the hand history; seems like you're in the CO and villain is in early, but if that's the case how are you open shoving? Did villain check to you on the flop? If villain checked to you, I'd just make a pot-sized bet and get it in to a c/r.