1/2 NL

Table: definition of loose passive. LOTS of PF limping, almost 2 out of 3 pots are limpfests. If someone does raise, standard sizing is ~$12 - $15.

Hero: been playing TAG for around 3 hours. Card dead for the most part, quietly picking my spots here & there, picking up dead money. Have had AK in BB at least 4 times, raised the limpers every single time, they all folded every single time. No big pots/showdowns to speak of. Fairly unknown in this cardroom, I used to play here quite a bit, this is my first session in this room in about 8 months. I don't talk much, feel confident these players have no idea who I am or how I play.

Villain: just sat down with max buy-in of $300. This is literally first or second hand he's been dealt. I've very little experience with this villain, but he is a REG in this cardroom. I recognize him from my previous sessions.

Hero ($150ish) BTN:J 8
Villain ($300) UTG:? ?

PF: Villain limps, 4 other players limp, I raise to $14 (tad spewy I know)...blinds fold...villain says "if I call, everybody calls, right?" and calls, 2 more players call.

Flop: 7 8 5
Pot ~$61
checks around to Hero - Hero opts to check.

Turn: 7 8 5 7
Pot ~$61
Villain bets $35, both other players fold, Hero just calls.

River: 7 8 5 7 4
Pot ~$131
Villain bets $75...hero tanks.

Hero?

Would you call / raise in this spot? I'll post results in next couple days.

I don't mind the preflop raise since you have been getting folds, but j-8 suited plays well multi-way in limped pot with position. Raising j-8 is way more lag than tag though.

You flop top pair on button. You have to bet. Your most likely gonna get a call or 2 with that board. Then I would check behind most turn cards.

As played its an easy fold.

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ewww.. this hand is just all sorts of screwed up.

First off - your PF with $150 is "OK" but you really shouldn't open up with 75BB. I'd probably fold - and find a better spot but it's still not terrible.

What is terrible is your flop check. If you check this flop you almost always give up the hand. Problem with raising so big is you made the pot enormous vs players that arn't going to fold with a hand that isn't amazing. Any ways - bet $35 on flop to get at least a few folds.

If any one calls you they are most likely checking the turn. You have to bet an 8 or J but depending on the type of player who called - you could bet the turn. Readless - i'm just checking.

River is meh. Depending on the card that comes out. You can't really bet for value if you checked the turn. You could bluff catch though.

But as played - just fold the turn. You are behind so much and will have to call a river bet that is going to be too hard to call with top pair decent kicker vs 4 unknowns.

At limpfest tables when you have a hand like J8s on the BTN you want to limp, pot control post flop with the goal of hitting gin and then prison raping your loose passive stationy fish with offensive overbets that would make Bernie Madoff say "Damn!!!!"

Pretty much the worse thing you can do is put in a weakish raise that will likely be called by multiple players...

At loose passive tables you really want to raise value hands. In the case of speculative hands or drawing hands like J8s, your goal is keeping your implied odds high, manuevering post flop so you can turn or river gin and then opening up a can of whoop ass and extracting max value from the fish.

So as played, I'm not a big fan at all. Limp preflop, bet flop, check back or fold turn, and definitely fold river...

This is true. I didn't expect that many calls to be honest, but V set the stage with his speech-call I suppose.

ewww.. this hand is just all sorts of screwed up.

First off - your PF with $150 is "OK" but you really shouldn't open up with 75BB. I'd probably fold - and find a better spot but it's still not terrible.

I was getting a little bored with folding my crap button hands every orbit. I didn't expect that many calls either. I agree, I could've limped along or folded PF.

What is terrible is your flop check. If you check this flop you almost always give up the hand. Problem with raising so big is you made the pot enormous vs players that arn't going to fold with a hand that isn't amazing. Any ways - bet $35 on flop to get at least a few folds.

Agreed. I should've bet something on the flop. Wet flop 4 handed, and I didn't want to get raised here either.

If any one calls you they are most likely checking the turn. You have to bet an 8 or J but depending on the type of player who called - you could bet the turn. Readless - i'm just checking.

I had the feeling I was ahead on the turn. In hindsight, I have no doubt this particular turn would've been checked had I bet the flop.

Thanks for the insight dgi. My raise was weakish wasn't it lol. And dammit, if I had any value hands to raise, I would have!

The sentence with both 'prison raping' and 'Bernie Madoff' in it made me cringe and laugh simultaneously. Thanks for that

Here's what happened:

If you can't c bet with TPGK, don't raise it pre.

I think it's a pretty trivial flop bet, honestly.

Pre-flop's OK. Given ( J, 8 ) and the button and a passive table, either call or raise is good. The flop play is a case of compounding errors. You have TPGK, you raised pre, and here is where you definitely need to c-bet. Checking it back gives any lone 6 or two diamonds a free draw. Here, I'd go $40 on that flop. If there's one or more draws out, make them pay.

As played, the turn is now a fold. You have no idea where you're at since the flop was checked around. Vil could have tripped sevens, made a full, picked up a heart draw, be bluffing with nothing. You have no idea and are just guessing at this point where a flop bet could have clarified the situation.

River is a definite fold. No sense in making it worse than it already is. If you threw in the best, them's the breaks. TPGK on an eight-high, draw heavy board is not a slow playing hand. Either have the courage of your convictions, or avoid hands that can make TPGK situations.

Well put, thanks for your insight Kyuubimon.

I agree my check was -EV to the point of being disgraceful

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Raise pre is pretty awful if we are expecting callers. Playing J8 multiway with a low SPR is a disaster.

On the flop I'm looking to stack off. Giving free equity to over cards with 60 in pot and 135 behind is bad. Again, if you can't bet this flop then think about how bad pre must be.

River, think about his range. He can bet 9T here because you can't see his cards and his range has you totally crushed.

agree with all posts and also agree with your river play. I think you recovered well.

I agree that raising the J8s pre in position. can be OK in a limped pot with passive opponents, but not when you only have 75bb. You're too shallow and I'm folding preflop. As played I'm folding river without some super strong read or history with this opponent.

Ugghhh.....

for some reason I didn't really think about OP's stack, he has $130-ish behind and the pot is $61.

Yeah, this is a jam. Just open jam it since at these tables TPMK is almost the nuts. And I would expect calls from all types of draws we are ahead of.

Uggghhhh hate when I miss the obvious. Good catch Quesuerte

this is an easy and clear jam given stacks and table dynamics...

plenty of lessor hands we beat can call...

Duly noted, thanks for the edit dgi.