9 seat table, was 7 handed.
Sat down with $190, and immediately noticed that the table was playing a little crazy. Most hands opened between $12-$15 raise and got multiple callers. One guy did this blind.
I am in the 3 seat. The guy in 2 seat just rebought after going all in for $7 and losing a 4 way pot.

This is the 8th hand I was dealt at the table:
I am on the button with JJ.
UTG: Call 2
EP1: fold
EP2: fold
two open seats between them and CO
CO (2 seat): raise to $12
I call 12 with JJ on the Button
SB: fold
BB:fold
UTG: raise to $50
CO: calls $50 after long deliberation
I shove.

Result is long deliberation from the UTG and moves all in, CO calls all in.

the board runs out under cards, no draws that would make sense hit. UTG shows QQ and wins roughly $600 Pot. CO doesn't show and mucks.

My logic:
I wasn't at the table long, but the UTG raiser was playing almost every hand, calling or rasing. he probably called-then folded off $60 since I had been there. I figured he was protecting a pocket pair and wanted to end the hand pre-flop. CO seemed to be on tilt and not playing well (Weak showdowns) and just smooth called $50 preflop which I thought was weak. I shoved to try and take down the $115 pot preflop figuring I probably had the best had, but could easily be flipping to AK (utg).

Sorry for the NOVEL....
thoughts?

Ah, the old limp/3 bet UTG. Yeah, that range at this level pretty much always has JJ crushed. Plus, why shove over the 3bet instead of 3 betting yourself on the BTN instead of flatting the CO's raise? Then if you get 4 bet by the UTG limper, then you're 100% sure you're crushed instead of 90% sure as played. As for your rationale, I don't think UTG is taking this line with a PP that is under JJ with anywhere near enough frequency (if at all) at this level to make your line correct.

Limping early and 3 bet monsters on an aggressive/loose table is THE #1 move in LLSNL.

Knowing this, AK is at the BOTTOM of that range. Bad shove imo. You are also too short to call and set mine. Fold pf.

I actually don't mind the play *if*'you think someone will fold specifically QQ or AK. Nobody folds AA (d'oh) or KK. I mean , your shove over the limp/re-raise and a call should mean QQ is smoked, and I know some old nits that might fold.

However:

- I don't like making these plays at 'crazy' tables
- you just flatted the initial raise, so reduces the odds you having KK or AA.

I agree with Lucere, would have much rather 3-bet on the button. You can safely fold to the limp/4-bet from UTG, which is like 99.998% QQ+.

Don't hate the play itself, because you can get better to fold sometimes (or get called by AK). Just have an idea that villains are capable of folding...

That should never be a good reason to shove in this spot, only to justify the action afterwards.

First, you have almost no fold equity, its only $140 more for him to call into a pot of $300, and you just didnt play it like aces or kings. He might have folded if you had $400 behind.

Second, Vs range being ak/qq/kk/aa, you might fold out ak, give it max 50% chance of realistically folding qq, you are still more likely to be a 20% underdog to a bigger pair when you get called than not.

thanks for the replies. I guess the moral of the story is that 3 betting instead of limping on the button would have provided a lot more information, and made it easy to fold pf. This way it only cost me the $40 I would have 3 bet, and then folded, instead of $190.

the only way I see this being bad is if UTG just flats the 3 bet and when the board comes all unders (Dry) we may get it in on the flop anyway... but i think that is very unlikely with him having QQ. the 4 bet is almost certain.

Limp/ 3 betting UTG usually means KK AA

He might just call the 3bet utg, but limp calling $40-50 should be setting off alarm bells in your head anyways. Not to mention, the steaming co might shove over top, then it is also an easy fold when you are stuck between the two.

If you get to see a flop, it depends on what the board is. There is a good chance that you are gunna get it in anyways, but that is the result when you put 25% of your stack in pf with an over pair in a 3-way pot.

In this sense, i dont hate the button smooth with JJ because you dont end up being stack committed otf and can extra some value from worse hands.

grunch but jacks aren't strong enough. and lol at that guy going all in for $7 on a 1/2 table.

also why didn't you just buy in for 100bb?

So its $178 more to win $252 assuming CO folds if you shove and utg calls.
So you need to be good ~ 40% but JJ against of range of QQ+ and AK is only good 36%.
Fold


Also 3bet the co open.

I think we have 0 fold equity tbh

3betting JJ vs a cutoff open needs to become part of your game. This is super standard and rarely am I ever not doing this in similar situations. Once he limp 4bet ships it's the easiest fold in the world and you will actually laugh about it and enjoy folding to the obvious QQ+