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1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? 1/2 NL - was this a bad fold?

10-02-2013 , 01:06 AM
Hero + Villain ~ $350 stacks

I have been having some financial problems which made me play tighter than normal lately. Ive been only bringing enough to cover a single buy in so im trying to pick my spots.

Villain has played 1 out of the last 20 hands...

Hero ace queen off suit UTG.
Villain is UTG+1.
I raise 15 dollars pre, villain calls as well as 2 others.
Board comes q 5 2

I raise 40. Villain re-raise to 135. Next player goes all in for 160. I fold.
Villain says ugh I was just trying to make a play, calls the extra 25 with king 10 of spades. Spades don't connect and the all in villain wins with queen 9 offsuit. I say what the fu** is going on at this table, spew my stack off with overpair vs overpair the next hand and leave.
I am almost certain villain usually has kings or better making a play like this only playing 1 of last 20 hands. Is this a good lay down the majority of the time or are we always trying to get it in with top pair top kicker on a board like that?

Last edited by joshb_22; 10-02-2013 at 01:13 AM.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 01:24 AM
Fold is not awful, but we'd want reads in general. Reads on villain 2 is more important than the first one, I'm definitely not folding vs him if it's folded back to hero.

There just aren't many combos of stronger hands, so when we factor in stuff like draws, we can't be folding here.
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10-02-2013 , 01:30 AM
Having 1 buy-in sucks and makes me want to find a better spot.
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10-02-2013 , 01:36 AM
I wouldn't put the villian on KK, ever. At 1-2 99% of players are playing their big pairs face up.

As far as the fold, it's not horrible,the action would look to me like someone flopped a set possible or had a flush draw.

Keep in mind that when you are playing scared money your decisions are very rarely ever going to be optimal.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 01:39 AM
Why wouldn't you put him on that? I feel like even if folded to me I would have still folded based on no reads and how he only played 1 out of last 20 hands, a limped pot at that. Are we not almost always beat here? I know he's not a new / typical crappy 1/2 fish either, we had a convo earlier about how he's Been playing for 7 years, and I saw him leave a table previous night tripled his stack over 8 hour session.
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10-02-2013 , 01:51 AM
If he's been playing for 7 years and he's playing 1/2, he is almost certainly a fish.

It's not a great spot, but usually QQ+ will 3bet pre. 55 and 22 are all we're afraid of. Both are possibilities, but if villain can do this with draws or queens, then it's a trivial shove. Without stronger reads, I'd probably just get it in unless villain shows obvious signs of being a nit. A sample size of 20 hands is not enough to determine villain is a nit, so I'd get it in without being thrilled.

The short stack can have any flush draw or queen or even something silly like TT, so don't worry about that.
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10-02-2013 , 01:58 AM
You're right I should of realized QQ+ is going to be 3 bet pre and narrowed it down... However I've been in a lot of hands lately where ppl with aces are flat calling raises... Very tricky. Good read on the short stack too, I forget sometimes that more often than not they will get it in with weak kicker. Being scared to lose my buy in is what crewed me here. Good advice thank you.

Very next hand I have pocket 9's, raise 15 from mp, get 2 callers, board is 8,7,2 rainbow someone raises 25 and I shove and get called with aces... Left feeling like poker has no skill to it anymore lol. I feel like I need to try higher stakes or something.

Last edited by joshb_22; 10-02-2013 at 02:04 AM.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb_22
You're right I should of realized QQ+ is going to be 3 bet pre and narrowed it down... However I've been in a lot of hands lately where ppl with aces are flat calling raises... Very tricky. Good read on the short stack too, I forget sometimes that more often than not they will get it in with weak kicker. Good advice though thank you.
If a ssnl player isn't 3 or 4 betting pre with QQ+ in a multi-way pot, they are just asking for trouble. In a heads-up pot, flatting to trap isn't all that bad.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 02:03 AM
Being scared money will always make your decisions worse.

Yeah, people at 1/2 will do weird things like flat with QQ+, but if he's a relatively experienced player capable of showing aggression, you can assume he'll pretty much always 3bet those.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 02:03 AM
What are your goals? If you're playing to win the most money and learn to play the best poker you can, a fold is nitty as hell and it's an easy shove. If you're playing for entertainment and to play as long as you can without losing much money, a fold is okay. Folding is -$EV but much lower variance. But if you're there to pay a few $ an hour for entertainment, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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10-02-2013 , 02:08 AM
To clarify, a nitty ABC playstyle that includes folding here may be profitable, but not by a lot, and it's developing bad habits for long term. Personally, I would much rather bust and go home and watch TV than fold.
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10-02-2013 , 02:12 AM
Yeah I'm not a nit and will usually get it in, the 2nd villain shipping it really threw me off I think. Going over it though it makes tons of sense to call, I'll have to slow down my all in decisions and think back to pre flop betting / other variables.

The day overall rlly got to my head though.. Within 10 mins i lost two pots to sets, over my tptk, 5's at that so that 5 and all that action scared me out.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 02:18 AM
I don't really like calling as much as shoving though. It leaves you with $190 left for a $540 pot, which puts you in a crazy awkward spot if a spade hits the turn.

It seems like a lot to put in with tptk, but since the hand played more like a 2/5 hand preflop with your raise, it's really like you're playing 70 bb stacks rather than 175 bb stacks.
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10-02-2013 , 02:20 AM
Folding tptk for less than 6 SPR on a wet board should not be done without good reads IMO.
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10-02-2013 , 02:22 AM
If your job is like $10 an hour and your bankroll is slim, a fold may be okay, but it's still developing bad long-term habits.
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10-02-2013 , 02:24 AM
Def shoving if I'm going in. Thx all should of seen it more clearly.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb_22
You're right I should of realized QQ+ is going to be 3 bet pre and narrowed it down... However I've been in a lot of hands lately where ppl with aces are flat calling raises... Very tricky. Good read on the short stack too, I forget sometimes that more often than not they will get it in with weak kicker. Being scared to lose my buy in is what crewed me here. Good advice thank you.

Very next hand I have pocket 9's, raise 15 from mp, get 2 callers, board is 8,7,2 rainbow someone raises 25 and I shove and get called with aces... Left feeling like poker has no skill to it anymore lol. I feel like I need to try higher stakes or something.
There's plenty of skill left in poker. There is also plenty of variance.

You need to do whatever you can to lower expenses and/or increase your income so you can get a proper roll together. Stop playing till you can get yourself properly rolled. You are playing with scared money.

See above bold section. That's one of those things that when I hear a player say it I try to follow them from table to table like they are a broken ATM machine spewing twenties because they probably are.

If you can't beat 1/2 you won't beat 2/5.
1/2 NL - was this a bad fold? Quote
10-02-2013 , 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshb_22
Hero + Villain ~ $350 stacks

I have been having some financial problems which made me play tighter than normal lately. Ive been only bringing enough to cover a single buy in so im trying to pick my spots.

Villain has played 1 out of the last 20 hands...

Hero ace queen off suit UTG.
Villain is UTG+1.
I raise 15 dollars pre, villain calls as well as 2 others.
Board comes q 5 2

I raise 40. Villain re-raise to 135. Next player goes all in for 160. I fold.
Villain says ugh I was just trying to make a play, calls the extra 25 with king 10 of spades. Spades don't connect and the all in villain wins with queen 9 offsuit. I say what the fu** is going on at this table, spew my stack off with overpair vs overpair the next hand and leave.
I am almost certain villain usually has kings or better making a play like this only playing 1 of last 20 hands. Is this a good lay down the majority of the time or are we always trying to get it in with top pair top kicker on a board like that?
1. Don't play if you aren't comfortable getting stacked.
2. You didn't raise 40 on the flop, you bet 40. I'm not saying this to be a snarky dbag, I'm just telling you so that you can get the wording right in the future.
3. Do you have the A? That would be good information to have here.
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10-02-2013 , 08:26 AM
With the action I dont blame a fold, but you have to figure one of them has a flush draw. You are getting 3 to 1 (140 into 420) to just call here. This is not for your stack right now to see what the V does on the Turn. He cant raise, only call the extra 25.

Sure you could be against a set or AA/KK here. The As would factor into process as well if you have it. Dont read into the lack of play by someone as them only playing premium hands .. could be KQs. In this case you would be flipping, but with the 'dead' money in there from short stack you are priced into the call.

If you are getting this many callers with a decent raise from UTG, then you need to increase your opening bets or try to c/r this kind of Flop.

Also if you are playing with limited (scared) money then dont open with this hand UTG and try to play this OOP. You will see this play from V MORE at 2-5 (over card with flush draw) .. you just wont see the call from Q9 as often. You def shouldnt raise with this hand UTG at 2-5 if you are going to fold to this action. GL
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