There have been at least three occasions in recent memory where I played a hand pretty well until the river but then gave away $100 when a bad card came and it was pretty clear I was beaten. Given the odds I was getting, I don't think any of them were terrible calls. However, when you aren't playing many hours, those mistakes are amplified.

In this case, I think the river is a pretty clear fold, but I want to make sure that I played the hand appropriately up to that point.

Villain is a black male in his early 40s. He was very active when he first came to the table and got stacked within 30 minutes. After rebuying for the maximum, he has played a more solid game and has crept close to even for the session. He still limps too much, but he isn't making huge mistakes.

BB is a white male in his mid 20s who has called a lot of my preflop raises but has been a non-factor against me after the flop.

I have ~350; Villain and BB both cover.

My image is probably on the LAG side, just because I am making the most frequent and largest preflop raises. However, no one has seen me get way out of line.

I raise QQ to 10 UTG, Villain calls in SB, BB calls.
Flop (30): T98
SB checks, BB checks, I bet 25, SB calls, BB calls.
Turn (105): 8
SB checks, BB checks, I bet 75, SB calls, BB folds.
River (255): K
Villain bets 100, I ???

I thought that turn card was just about the best I could hope for other than a jack; felt it was right to keep firing.

How does everything look?

Grunch.

Yeah... Definitely fold river unless you seen him make "blocking" bets like this before. His leading into you OTR here is very strong for the most part. As played to the river, you played the hand fine IMO. I'm not sure the 8 is the best card in the deck for you, because he can actually have like 86, 87, and stuff like that. An off suit 2 or 4 would be better. But yeah definitely still fire the turn.

You fold. You cannot beat any reasonable hand here. You lose to a king, a straight, a flush, trips... The only thing you beat is a ten that thinks he's good. You don't want to, but this is an easy fold.

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Actually, I do want to. That river card is so bad that I'm actually a little thankful that I didn't have a tough decision.

I was more interested in the rest of the hand, particularly bet-sizing on the turn.

Turn bet was fine, IMO. Large enough to deny good odds to the draw, small enough if beat. The only alternative I see is to check the turn and bluff catch, but I wouldn't want to give a free card in that spot.

So, you played it okay. Fired two barrels and got drawn out on, or were behind on the flop. Either way, I'm okay with the hand as played.

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Folding is fine.

Bluff shoving might be better.

It's high variance but can be +EV here. You probably are a touch shallow, and you need a read, but you should consider it.

If you had the Ac, I think bluff shoving would be closer to mandatory because he couldn't even hold the nut flush. Even without it, it's worth a thought.

It's very hard for anyone to ever have a boat or quads. And it's nearly impossible for him to have those hands when he just c/c flop and turn on the straight and flush board. And if he did have those hands, it just wouldn't make sense that he'd take that line and then a) lead the river or b) lead the river smallish.

So he has a flush a ton. He's almost always too polarized on a board like this to have a straight (which you block anyway) or worse. I don't know if he lays down the flush a ton, but you're definitely in a position to turn every hand he could possibly have into a bluff catcher. You're fairly uncapped, and he's fairly capped, but you might not want to assume he understands relative hand values anyway.

^^ Probably wouldn't do this against described villain. He probably has a natural splashy streak. Since being stacked, he may have tightened up a bit and may be choosing his spots, but now that he was finally dealt a monster, this is probably his spot, and he'll be hard-pressed to leave it.

I definitely like your line against more standard Monday-Thursday casino regs though.

Of course it's hard to make a full house or four-of-a-kind, but given his action, I wouldn't rule it out.

He may be check-calling the flop with a set, because he has two opponents, and a straight is definitely possible.

Once the board pairs on the turn, he'd have nothing to worry about really. I mean, if he has a full house, he may be slightly concerned about a better full house or quads, but he no longer has to fear straights or flush draws. I think check-calling the turn makes a lot of sense; probably hoping the small blind comes along for another 75.

On the river, slow-playing one more time would be a huge gamble for him. If it checks through, he'll be sick. Therefore, I definitely see him making the bet OOP.

In summary, I think calling a preflop raise, c/c flop and turn, and leading the river could certainly be a flush, but it also makes sense for a big flop that got bigger on the turn.

Man I wish I had KK instead of QQ here.

Is a $10 pf raise common at 1/2 where you play? Does it achieve the results you typically want?

A guy playing solid calls an early position raise out of the sb, what flushes does he have here really?

AcTc only,maybe. He likely raises that more than not. 6c7c or JcTc is always raising along the way, same goes for flopped sets/turned boats. You hold the Qc. He likely check calls KT as it's a bluff catcher at best. QJ flopped the nuts/woulda raised. honestly the Kc isn't that scary imo.

unless I have good reason to believe he would flat AcXc oop and then take a c/c line(super passive which is contradictory to making that kind of call pre flop) I think the conversation is between raising and calling, not folding.

A better question yet is how sticky/how light will he stack off. You raised pre and bet two streets in a multi way pot. I think you can rep a FH pretty easily. Could he get away from a flush if you jam for $140 more? You probably don't have enough under normal circumstance, but you said after he got felted that he tightened up considerably.

At the end of day, it may be tough to get him to fold for only $140 more, but his bet wreaks of a weak blocking bet in a spot where he almost never has a FH and it's unlikely he has the NF. If I'm at the table I'm looking for a reason not to fold in this spot.

what are these "reasonable" hands you speak of?

Calling with a flopped set, multi way, on this board would just be

especially after already reaching into the pocket for a second time. (IMO)

That was 5 hours ago. I imagine any tilt would have dissipated by now.

No.

No.

However, I keep doing it because I'm a stubborn jackass.

AJ

It's hard to beat a game when you regularly make 50bb donations on the river.

A shove vs this villain would be terrible. We can't reasonably expect him to ever fold better, even a king.

It's too risky. He only has to call $140 into $595.

I think we're really reaching with all the talk of bluff-shoving the river. I'm all for creativity and thinking outside the box, but that just sounds suicidal.

I've noticed that.

He'd have to be a real sicko to call a river shove with kings up. That's not the hand I'm worried about though. If the river did make his hand, I'm thinking it's much more likely that he made a flush than a better two pair.

but does he just call oop twice with this hand? Its such a monster, plus stack size, it just seems crazy to me to play that big of a hand like that.

I do agree he probably isn't folding a flush, but honestly I'm paying off the river here, and then being completely shocked when/if he shows me the AcJc.

I guess my point is, I disagree with your premises that calling in this spot is burning money, everything being equal I think your making money when calling.

It's not about being a sicko. They will call expecting to be beat because psychologically they can't fold after putting that much money in the pot.

Yeah, it's almost certainly a fold in this situation, but it's 100% a mistake to think this is just a call/fold I'm-beat-or-I'm-not spot. It's really a fold/shove I'm-beat-or-I-can-bluff-better spot. You need to consider all your options and opportunities. Bluff shoving will be the best move sometimes against some villains. When you lead flop and turn on boards like this (straightened, flushing, high cards) into two villains and then shove over a river bet, you are totally uncapped and basically nutted, villain's are not nutted, a flush is rarely good, their bet is often a blocking bet, and very few heros are capable of bluffing. You should add it to your capabilities. Obviously, you want to have the right villain, and it would be ideal to be quite a bit deeper to avoid sigh-calls.

The raise was only to $10 and stacks are $350 effective...V could easily have any combo of clubs with A in it...A2, A3, A4 whatever.

And particularly at 1/2, it is not 100% that V would 'raise all the way'. C/C and only betting out when hits on river is actually the standard play from these players.

Stupid phone! My whole post gone.. OTTcomment..

Shoot me but vs lag, im putting competent fishy on a wide range. 76s Qxjc Ajo Ajs T9 98..
After reading OP saying he could have flatted a set otf because of multiway and possible str8.
Had to read that ten times before I understood smh @ my brain..

Re raising to get a fold otr might work online(bulk of my ex) but looks like pot is already swollen for any backdowns and villain already re bought so he's here to play. I do have a bluff in his range though as seen above..

Also just because he gets jts or Ats Ajs in the bb or anywhere doesnt mean he is a smart player who makes those decisions unless noted by OP(yes OP says he was active before. Do people LLSNL normally catch on to this play? Raise pre for initiative?)

Ok its been 5 hours and you dont have too many bluffs in his range here?

Got carried away but on to what you wanted

Id say 90 ott since flop was 25 imo. Since villain did come to play nonetheless

If playing vs passive I may revert back to half pot bet ott HU if thats a fair idea