So this is a hand I played in a casino, Blinds are 1/2, 8-handed table. Everbody is very deep (shortest stack is ~500€) and considering that this is a live 1/2 game, this table is reasonably tight, there hasn't been a lot of limp-fests or like 6-way-pots going on.

UTG opens to 6€ (random Tourist, not much information about him. Could be any 2 cards, could be KK+, I just assign a standard range of 22+/A9+/KT+/QJ)

I'm +1 and look down at 7c7s, and I call, mainly because I really don't like 3betting this against an unknown and also don't want to scare away the entire table, because at this stack depth, 77 performs probably the same multiway as it does heads-up, because you won't go very far with it without having a set.

It folds around to the BB (that's right folks, I also rarely encountered a game like this), and he is more of an older guy who's not very tricky, but he seems to know what he's doing. He's positionally aware, and he's somewhat tight, but he also opens hands like 7h8h from the HI, so he can probably be descripled as a very boring reg, even though he has his leaks (plays a lot of fit-or-fold on the flop). He 3bets to 26€, he is also the effective stack with 867€ to begin the hand.

Now, consdering that he 3bets out of the BB when he can close the action for very cheap, and is raising the 2 strongest positions, I immediately assign him a very strong range because I believe that he is somewhat aware of this as well. So I'm thinking JJ+/AK+/AQs at the minimum, maybe even QQ+/AK exclusively. UTG folds, and I call 20€.

Pot is now 59€, effective stack 841€.

Flop comes 4h 5c 7h (hooray!), and BB continues for 45€. Now, remember when I said he plays a lot of fit-or-fold on the flop? This doesn't mean that I'm excluding AK from his range now, but if he does this with AK, this is also the only bet he will make the majority of the time, so I'm thinking of how to get the most money out of his big pairs.

I move all-in for 796€ more.

So the reason why I did this is, is because I think this is just the kind of bet, that will make it extremely hard for an overpair to fold, just because this looks so weird and unnessecary with a big value hand, so first of all I think that I have an opponent who is capable of picking this up with one pair. Second, I think there is just going to be a lot of cards that are going to make it hard to maneuver on future streets. All hearts, all 3s, 6s, 8s can slow down his action, all Broadway-Cards can either put an overcard to his pair out there or improve him to a better set. Obviously, I'm playing at a stack-depth that is supposed to give me the maneuverability for exactly those spots, but it's also a stack depth that allows him to go away without paying me enough money for my set and I just think this is the dude to get max value from, because he's just going to be married to his pair.

Also, I'm doing this with a balanced range (at least I think I do), because especially in deepstacked games like this, I just want to have every possible action in my playbook, and an 8x-pot shove on the flop is part of this playbook, so I need to think about what hands I want to do this with. Since this is a very polarizing bet, I'm not worried about my range having very few combos overall.

My value range is 50% of 44, 55 and 77 (because I'm not going to do this everytime in this spot obviously), so thats 4 1/2 combos.

My semi-bluff range are all the draws that have more than 50% equity against QQ/JJ and are still doing very well against QQ+. These are:
AhKh, Ah6h, Ah5h, 6h5h. So that's also 4 combos.

And now I need a total air range, which is hard to pick because obviously I can't have much air in this spot or otherwise it's exploitable. So I will have to do this with all 3 AhKx-combos to balance this out. The reason I picked this hand is, that it blocks AA and KK, and also blocks the nut-flush-draw, leaving my opponent with far less combos that he will call with comfortably, because considering his 3bet-range, he's not going to have very many sets or low combo-draws, if he even has those at all.


So end of story is, he called with KK and got very upset :P
He basically said "Wow, you're the first kid who does this **** and actually has a hand", so my question is whether he is right about that and my play was reasonable (because just it worked it doesn't have to be correct, maybe it only works against this guy specifically and I was lucky). Also, do you think it's reasonable to even have this move in your playbook and if so, is my range for this well picked?

Play is awful and V is more awful. Glad it worked out for you though. Even the biggest fish know that a 8x pot shove means you can beat an overpair.

So that means I need to have a lot more air in my range and an opponent who as an idea about my actual range in this spot then? Random air like TsJs or more air with blockers?
Also, does that mean I can almost always fold out my opponent when he is capped at QQ+/AK on low boards, and take advantage of that rather than trying to get value in these spots?

+1

So if I pull this of with JTo and he folds KK, do you celebrate me as the best player ever or what? I even added some additional questions in my 2nd post. Jesus Christ, just come up with answers that are a little bit more elaborate than your standard "this play doesn't match my 100BB-autopilot strats against a P-Fish so it's bad", I at least put some thoughts into my starting posts and if you can't give me an answer that at least somehow relates to this thoughts than just stay out of my thread. I'm fine with my play being atrocious in this spot, I'd just like to know why my thoughts are invalid because apparently that has to be the case considering your answers.

At $1/2 live? No. Not really.

If you really want every possible action in the playbook what about your range for calling the raise and then immediately mucking your hand before the flop? Because figuring out that range is just about as valuable as deciding on your 8x pot shove range.

At these stakes, there's no reason to balance your monkey shove range, because it's a stupid bluff that's hard to be +EV and is NEVER more +EV than making reasonable bet sizes (ie please explain how a bet that has to work ~90% of the time and costs you 400BB when it fails is superior to one that has to work 30% of the time and costs you less than a PSB with the same payout).

Good job identifying that villain would pay off your stupid bet with an overpair. Doesn't make you a genius. Go back to BBV.

I think this play is good with your hand against described villain. Tight players don't like to fold overpairs, and people generally don't like to fold overpairs when the only hand that beats them is a set and there's a flush draw on the board. As you say, there are a ton of scare cards that can hit on turn and river which could make it hard to get stacks in or kill your hand. Would like this play a little better if low card was a 2, rather than a 4, because then you can't have a straight either. Not worried that V has a straight but this is a better play when you have fewer value combos.

I would just never, ever do this as a bluff or even semi-bluff. I don't care about balance at all in this spot. How many hours do you have with V? This is an unusual enough spot (flop top set on a FD board against V's 3-bet with very deep stacks) that balance doesn't matter here.

Edited to add - Basically the reason I don't care about balance here is that it's super rare and we just got crazy value, so that's good enough on its own as a one-time thing. How many weeks or months will it be until a similar situation comes up with this V? What are the chances that he remembers this spot when it comes up? If he does, what are the chances he now folds his OP when you decide to semi-bluff?

Umm. I mean he called so I guess but it seems like you have him the best possible chance to fold his hand. He's a fish for calling I guess.

You turned what should have been just a fat value spot
Into a leveling spot which usually isn't as profitable.

Here in Vegas you can do this move easy because the fish will always call if he's got TP or an overpair. But agree, both plays are awful.

Alright guys, thank you very much and sorry for the little rant, that was unnessecary. I guess I'll just ditch plays like this for the future!

+3

At low-stakes live poker, abc often beats fancy-play. Keep it simple people~

I don't absolutely give no credence to the play and the thought-process behind the play, it is there. But there's no way it's the right move.

But seven times outta ten if I'm in a position and BB 3! with this board and these stacks: I'm just smooth-calling flop, then raising turn or Smoothin turn and raising river.

The other three times, I'm R the flop, but I hate R cause it looks strong, but if you put him on Overpair, you don't want draws to fill, cause then you get less action.


I can honestly say if I have AA and you did an 8x Shove on Flop I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever call Villian unless I have a read that I know I have him beat---as fact.


Edit: Hmm, I'm thinking this deep with a set, I should take risk more often than not to kill action and rep strength and Raise Flop actually on this wet connected board, if I put him on OP, what do you guys think? I kill action sometimes, but when I get action it's action that is headed full Stack-Up.

VS a complete uknown with a strong read he has an overpair on this board... I actually like this play alot and you will get called ALOT especially if you have the young type image. However I wouldnt be doing this versus a reg that I will play again and again.

But in this specific situation... I like it WP

If you think V won't fold overpairs,

becomes

and

becomes

.

Of course, you could argue shoving 65hh and the like for value which would be fine, although not sure this would be the most exploitative play vs an opponent who has basically only overpairs and will call the shove.

You stacked him, so congrats.

Your read on Villain is that he makes decisions on the flop to fold or to go with his hand. Have you seen him do this in pots this size? Even fish will adjust there play when pots get big.

If you have seen him make big all in calls/bets deep on the flop, then I love your play. If not, I don't like your play.

For this move:

You give villain the chance to make one very large mistake.


Against this move:

Your make it easy for villain to play his hand perfectly.

I recently started over betting pots against villains that I know will call anything. I think it's a good move in 1-2. When you have a read that they love their hand, and most likely won't fold, go for their whole stack before scare cards come up. I don't think balancing this play out in 1-2 is important at all. Not sure about your casino, but I'm probably never getting in the same spot with the same villain again.

There is over betting and then there's this!