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Old 08-11-2013, 04:37 PM   #1
samo
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$1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

Played this hand on Saturday night, pretty much on autopilot, not giving it much thought until the next day. Effective stack is $225, Hero covers.

New UTG+1 player (Villain), 2nd orbit, makes his first raise, $12. Hero 3-bets AcKh from MP1 to $30, folds back to Villain who calls.

($63) Flop of KsQsQc. Villain checks, Hero bets $40, Villain min-raises to $80, Hero folds.

If we assume a somewhat generous EP raise/3-bet call range of 99+, AJs+, what is the reason for my betting the flop? Iím folding all hands that are behind except AsJs, while all hands that are ahead will call or raise. Even if I widen his range to ATs, A5s, A4s, JTs, clearly it is still a very thin spot for value. KJ would be stretching imo.

Iím reflecting on my reason for betting (value). Truthfully, I am uncertain it was for value, since his legitimate calling range appears to be too narrow. Iím not betting to ďfind out where Iím atĒ, though his raise did indicate I was behind.

This may be a spot where we have already obtained max value pre. If so, is checking the flop a better option, hoping to induce a call on turn or river, or is this too FPS?

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:49 PM   #2
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

Ya I have been in that spot before, I find it better to check the flop for pot control rather than value bet. Then just bluff on all blank turns. As played its a ok check fold but u may want to consider a different line next time.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:13 PM   #3
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

against tricky lags/aggressive players I prefer to check flop with intention to check call turn. I think a tricky lag player will check raise bluff this board much more often. (air, flush draw, gutters, possibly under-pair, trip queens) If you are deeper stacked this seems like a difficult situation and would rather play for pot control.

If its a player I have pegged as straightforward then I would bet flop for value more as they may be calling with under pairs, gutters, worse King and can safely fold to a raise.

With hands that I want to get to showdown and not play for stacks: Rule of thumb I have is tend to check and pot control against tricky lags more and value bet more with straightforward players.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:25 AM   #4
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by grinding2 View Post
Don't bet the flop if you're going to fold to a min c/r.

Also not a fan of the 3-bet.
Can you explain your thoughts on the 3-bet. Is it too small, or are you not a fan of the 3-bet here in general?
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:32 AM   #5
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by grinding2 View Post
Don't bet the flop if you're going to fold to a min c/r.

Also not a fan of the 3-bet.
Can you explain your thoughts on the 3-bet. Is it too small, or are you not a fan of the 3-bet here in general?
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:42 AM   #6
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

I think both calling and 3betting are fine sometimes. I'd be more inclined to 3b against either a looser opponent or as a squeeze, and more inclined to call against a tighter opponent who would be folding all his dominated Ax and Kx to a 3b. As described I would just call.

I think your flop line is fine as well. He could have some draws you can get value from, he might spitefully take one off with JJ, he might show up with KJs? Who knows. Checking flop/calling future streets would be by far the worst line to take because you're virtually always getting money in bad.

Incidentally, protecting your equity is a valid reason to bet. It's just usually in hold'em it is outweighed by other reasons not to bet. If he has AJ or AT, it benefits us if he folds his 10% equity. Maybe not enough to make betting flop correct but if betting flop is a mistake, it's not as large a mistake as you think.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:24 AM   #7
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

If 2 queens hits the flop, how often are you cbetting if you have the queen?

Exactly. Now I am a little different. I am triple barreling with trips but most people don't. Especially in live play. I know a ton of solid live players that will stack off with K10 or worse on a kqq board.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:33 AM   #8
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

I think your 3-bet is too small.

As played, he probably has the Q about 97 percent of the time.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:18 AM   #9
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

I normally would check this back unless the opponent was a complete spazzoid who I was trying to get stacks in with.

against a standard opponent checking back allows you get some future value from dominated hands that are just gonna c/f the flop.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:22 AM   #10
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by fogodchao View Post
I normally would check this back unless the opponent was a complete spazzoid who I was trying to get stacks in with.

against a standard opponent checking back allows you get some future value from dominated hands that are just gonna c/f the flop.
That's along the lines of my thought process, bluff catch or get value from a weaker K and any under pairs on the turn and river. It isn't by any means the only way to play the hand but I really don't see much worse calling u on the flop.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:29 AM   #11
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by fogodchao View Post
I normally would check this back unless the opponent was a complete spazzoid who I was trying to get stacks in with.

against a standard opponent checking back allows you get some future value from dominated hands that are just gonna c/f the flop.
What is your plan for the rest of the hand, call turn / fold river?
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:44 AM   #12
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
What is your plan for the rest of the hand, call turn / fold river?
As a default that's probably best, but I'd try and pick up something based on your opponents sizing, they will normally give away the strength of their hand and you can call, or even sometimes raise/fold for value when you think you are always ahead.

Obviously fold if/when they give off a sizing tell that you are beat.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #13
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

Yes, checking flop here can be fine when you are not against somebody braindead. Going to be close depending on history etc. As played folding to c/r is fine. This is a hand worse than AK a tiny amount of the time.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:27 PM   #14
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

I think that checking the flop is your best bet. Let's look at the options...

1st off, you 3-bet, which will narrow your perceived range to most likely jj+, AK-AQ. Even the most brain-dead 1/2 player will expect you to have a big hand with a 3-bet.

Option 1: He thinks you hit the flop or have AA, and he is min-check-raising. Sounds like a Q to me.

Option 2: He is hoping that you missed with an under-pair and is raising with air.

I don't think that is any king that villain has that he is check-raising and not check-calling with here. So I think as played you are fine to fold. However, you'll widen you perceived range by checking through and more likely to get value out of a weaker king, or even 1010, JJ. Plus you gain the pot control advantage. So I think that a check is a slightly better play... though I am totally ok with the continuation as well.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:40 PM   #15
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by quesuerte View Post
Yes, checking flop here can be fine when you are not against somebody braindead. Going to be close depending on history etc. As played folding to c/r is fine. This is a hand worse than AK a tiny amount of the time.
This
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:31 PM   #16
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

Maybe its because I know the outcome but I think you need to 3b pre either smaller or bigger, to me this screams AK and invites V to stab at this.

What do you put him on that so often has us behind? AA seems unlikely, KQ, QQ or KK very unlikely so AQ? Would he call with 10Jss or AJss? What is his goal in raising you here?

I dunno, doesn't feel right to me. Tough to get it in here and calling feels horrible so I understand the fold but icky. AP, I think I shove here at least some of the time.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:47 PM   #17
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by ManikMarlin View Post
Maybe its because I know the outcome but I think you need to 3b pre either smaller or bigger, to me this screams AK and invites V to stab at this.

What do you put him on that so often has us behind? AA seems unlikely, KQ, QQ or KK very unlikely so AQ? Would he call with 10Jss or AJss? What is his goal in raising you here?

I dunno, doesn't feel right to me. Tough to get it in here and calling feels horrible so I understand the fold but icky. AP, I think I shove here at least some of the time.
Vs. an unknown I normally 3-bet JJ+/AK. Earlier, I 3-bet $30 in a similar spot w/JJ. Many $1/$2 NL players believe a 3-bet pre is always AK.

Shoving ... hmm, when you do, are you expecting to get a call from a worse hand like AsJs?
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:05 PM   #18
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

A 3b to 40 preflop would have set up an ~80 pot with 185 behind, an spr a little over 2 and probably an easy stack off tptk+. As played the spr was around 3, so if I wasn't going to b/c the flop I'd check and call future bets.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:11 AM   #19
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Re: $1/$2 NL AKo on KQQ flop

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
Vs. an unknown I normally 3-bet JJ+/AK. Earlier, I 3-bet $30 in a similar spot w/JJ. Many $1/$2 NL players believe a 3-bet pre is always AK.

Shoving ... hmm, when you do, are you expecting to get a call from a worse hand like AsJs?
Yes, sometimes, he's raising as a non-believer in that case. Plus I'm expecting FD to call sometimes and for AK to fold sometimes. Not sure what % I fold, it depends on the overall situation, session length, other table dynamics etc.
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