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1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw 1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw

02-06-2015 , 10:33 PM
Hero was in one of the craziest 1/2 games he has ever seen for an hour. he started with $200 and now sits on $340. He played pretty TAG, he played 5-6 hands outside of the times he was in the blinds and he raised pre in all of those hands with TT,JJx2,QQx2. The only hands went to show down were JJ and QQ which were both good.

Villain 1 is a middle aged, asian gentleman. He had $1100 when I sat down but doubled up half of table (including me and villain 2 twice). He straddles every hand but does not raise pre that often. On the flop he bets 2x or 3x pot especially if it is checked to him and barrel the turn and river for usually more than the pot. If you have under $200 and you are in a pot with him on the flop, you know you are playing for stacks. He doubled me up when I picked JJ, reraised pre and bet the flop on a 667ss board. When Qo hit the turn he donked and I shoved and he snapped and showed a 7. He does not like to fold pairs/OE straight draws/FDs and plays his draws (even gutshots) very aggressively.

Villain 2 is very passive in general. Villain 1 and 2 seems to have history. When I just sat down, he called down villain 1 with JJ on a king high board when the board paired and there were 3 to a straight. This was the first time he doubled up through villain 1. He does not raise pre flop but reraise his slow played pairs on the flop (especially QQ, KK) if there is no over card. He raised to $200 a couple of times on the flop in a limped pot (almost every limped pot is a straddle pot because villain 1 straddles every hand) when there is a bet of $20 and a call in front of him. I noticed this especially happens when there is a FD on the board. Villain 2 loves to call with draws. I saw him calling 2, 3 times with gutshots on the flop when there is a bet of 3x pot from villain 1. Against other players he calls with his draws for at least one street for any pot-sized bet.

Villain 3 is a 30 something white male with hoodie and a cap. He is to the left of villain 1, so he is UTG pretty much every hand. He is TAG. Played 3 hands in an hour. 2 of them were aces. The third one was when he had K9ss in a limped pot and check-raised villain 2 on the 972ss board but bet folded on a 6 turn when villain 2 shoved.

Table is very limp happy but every time anybody raise villain 1 and 2 will both call. Hero ($340) is in HJ with A8. Hero limps after a limper in middle position. CO calls. Villain 2 ($800) in the button calls. Villain 1 ($300) is in small blind (so there is no straddle this hand) and completes. Villain 3 ($180) makes it 17. The limper folds. Hero calls. CO fold. Villain 1 and 2 both call. I know I should probably fold pre. The reason I limped at the first place was that for 2$ it's a good hand to play against villain 1 and 2, specially since villain 1 and 2 both pay off if you hit and they hardly raise pre. Now I know I should fold when villain 3 raises, because I am probably crushed against his range and he does not pay me off if I hit. Anyway, knowing villain 1 and 2 will both call, I called.

Pot = 17x4 + 2x2 - 5 rake = 67.
Flop is 452

Villain 1 check, villain 3 continues for $60, hero min-raises to $120, villain 2 goes all in, villain 1 folds, villain 3 calls all in. Hero?

Pot is = 67 + 120x3 + 43 x 2 + 203 = 716.
It is 203 to me to call. Side pot is 203. Main pot is 513.

I min-raised the flop because I have blockers to AA. villain 3 can have a big pocket pair but I felt like with an over and NFD, I would be happy to call off if he shoves because essentially I am committing myself to his shove. I was surprised villain 2 shoved, but then he can also have an over pair or even a straight.

I know pre flop is bad, but how should I play this on the flop? Should I just call the initial $60 bet? I did not do that because I have to fold any non-diamond or non 3 turns to another bet. Now when it's back to me, I can't fold. Can I? Even if they have sets and straights which crush me, I am getting better than 3 to 1 to call. I would appreciate any feedbacks.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-06-2015 , 10:55 PM
Fist pump snap call.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-06-2015 , 10:56 PM
Uhhhh snap and get there obviously. Hate the minraise. Make it $285 and obv call a shove. Basically flopped the nuts.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-07-2015 , 11:41 AM
As played, you're clearly getting the right price to continue. The pot is laying you 3.5 to 1. Even if you're against a set and a flopped straight, you're in pretty good shape. Given player descriptions, you could win the side pot with ace high if V2 is on a worse FD. Snap call.
I don't know if I love the min raise, though. I think you have no FE. When faced with a pot sized bet OTF, I understand why you don't want to flat. I'm interested to see who says 'fold flop' and why. Your raise worked out perfectly, in a sense, that now, the pot is big and you're getting the right price. But I wonder if the best play on the flop is fold>raise>call.
With NFD and a gunshot, I'm typically looking to play a big pot but I wonder if that's a leak in my game.
Obvi, you're getting it in at the right price but you're getting it in on a draw, which can wreak havoc on short term results and variance. You might be 30% or better to win this hand, but if you lose this 70% of the time, does a big situation like this arise enough that the results will even out anytime soon?
As played, your chips are going in the middle and hopefully you hit. But, now you've got 170bb in the middle and you could have gotten away from this hand much more cheaply. My response here is definitely influenced by the fact that my short term results in these situations have been bad. In general, I love this kind of spot and love getting the chips in. I just wonder, if we drop 170bb here, even if it's the right play, what's that going to do to long term win rates? I don't run from variance, but this is a big pot and we're behind.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-07-2015 , 12:09 PM
I know the way the hand is played, I have to call the shoves when it's back to me. My main question was about how to play the flop after Villain 3 continues. I can't decide which of fold or raise is a better play. I hate calling because I have to fold most turns and Villain 3 will probably fold if we hit (so no implied odds)
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-07-2015 , 01:07 PM
Limp is ok at a passive table, but fold to the raise pre. Pretty close to a dream flop for A8s. Raise at least $180 on the flop. Easy shove as played.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-07-2015 , 06:12 PM
The only argument I can see in favor of calling the flop is if you think it'll induce a spaz play from V1 or V2. Raising has the unfortunate effect of driving out weaker drawing hands, and you have little-to-no fold equity against V3. So I'd pause and examine the two players behind me. If either seems thrilled, I'm calling to induce a raise/overcall.

This should've been a limp/fold on the flop, particularly given V3's range. But having made that one mistake, you have an absolute dream flop here. I'd give no consideration to folding. You're either raising and hoping to gii or you're calling and hoping someone else will raise so you can gii. ...Hell, if V3 has KK or QQ, you're looking at 15 outs right now.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-08-2015 , 05:56 AM
Considering you view V3 as tight, this flop does not hit him. Even if he has QQ+ you are a small favorite

I'd shove the flop bet. You either win $130 when everyone finds folds. Worst case you are a 36% dog against sets/straights, you are coin flipping vs overpairs, best case you are crushing a flush draw.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-08-2015 , 06:15 AM
TLDR, but skimmed the post and open limp is ok but calling $15 more is bad. If you know the others will call behind you I don't mind calling a small raise because your hand plays really well multiway but $15 more is too costly.

On the flop you should just call the initial bet because our equity sucks heads up but is very good multiway. Because of your position, when you raise you are essentially isolating the strongest hand and forcing weaker hands out. If weaker draws and one pair type hands call that increases our equity and if we hit a diamond we (essentially) have the nuts regardless of how many players are in the pot.

And I hate the min-raise. In general whenever I use the term "min-raise" in a sentence it is preceded by "I hate"

As played not folding. We got super lucky that V2 shipped to make this multiway.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-08-2015 , 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
TLDR, but skimmed the post and open limp is ok but calling $15 more is bad. If you know the others will call behind you I don't mind calling a small raise because your hand plays really well multiway but $15 more is too costly.

On the flop you should just call the initial bet because our equity sucks heads up but is very good multiway. Because of your position, when you raise you are essentially isolating the strongest hand and forcing weaker hands out. If weaker draws and one pair type hands call that increases our equity and if we hit a diamond we (essentially) have the nuts regardless of how many players are in the pot.

And I hate the min-raise. In general whenever I use the term "min-raise" in a sentence it is preceded by "I hate"

As played not folding. We got super lucky that V2 shipped to make this multiway.
So suppose I call flop and villain 2 calls as well. What should I do if we break the turn knowing villain 3 will probably shove any non-straight/flush card on the turn?
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote
02-08-2015 , 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj3423
So suppose I call flop and villain 2 calls as well. What should I do if we break the turn knowing villain 3 will probably shove any non-straight/flush card on the turn?
Well if it's an all in situation on the turn then it's just a math question. Run the numbers and determine whether you are getting the right price to call on the turn. If you think the other villain will call if you call the turn shove then that gives you better equity but you can't necessarily count on that.

If villain's range is JJ+ then we are 31% if the turn is a random brick. There are a lot of turns that improve our equity aside from diamonds any Ace, 3, 6, 7, or 8 - so 15 non-diamond cards will give us better than 31% equity on the turn.

If you look at the math you will see that calling V3's ship on a blank turn would be +EV even if we know V2 is going to fold. If V2 is going to call with a potentially dominated draw that makes this spot even juicier. If V2 is going to ship over top on a blank turn that kind of sucks because it means we will be putting our chips in the middle when our equity is the lowest and if he has a strong enough hand to shove then he likely blocks some of our outs (either because he has a set or a straight) but in general that is the least likely scenarios as V2 is unlikely to flat with those hands on the flop.
1/2 NL 3 Way-All in with the Nut Flush Draw Quote

      
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