$1/$2

The decision to fold is pretty clear cut in this hand but wondering if there is any other way of playing this.

Preflop
Hero is in late position with $320 & A 6

UTG has approx $200

Middle 2 position has approx $150

Preflop UTG raises to $10

4 callers

Hero calls.

Flop $50 10 7 9

UTG bets $30
UTG+1 calls
MP1 folds
MP2 raises to $80 [leaving himself ~$60 behind]

Hero?

Hero knows he should fold in this spot, because he doesn't play for stacks while drawing to a flush.

However I thought about flatting the $80 because right now there is $190 in pot, hero is sure that UTG will 4bet AI further inflating the pot to $430 ($190 + heros $80 + 160 from UTG).

If this were to happen the MP2 is a solid to come along for $60.
The pot would then be ~$490 with hero calling for $110.

I've had a few drinks so let me know if this the most stupid thing you've seen lately. I thoughbt UTG had a set, UTG+1 was weak and annoyed at the raise and finally MP2 was pretty juicy.

The board is very wet with the possible of people blocking me with smaller flush draws, straight draws & not to mention the hands players have already made.

We were all beginners once, thoughts are appreciated.

We need your reads on people to give useful input.

Also, fold pre

Marginal call PF ... but 5 ways ok, now you basically got the Flop (and action) you want and you want to run?

I can do both flat and shove here to force UTG's hand. You aren't really priced into a shove, even if you get the rest of UTG+1 chips in there but it would be 4-ways if that happens.

By flating the raise you may slow down UTG and get to see the Turn cheap ... then you just take it down on the Turn if checked to after the flush hits. UTG wont have much behind for the Turn or River anyways.

Your math looks even better than I thought it would. You cant be so concerned about blockers/made hands here. Only flush draw you are behind is 9hXh, your Ace might be good, any 8 might be good ... yes, board might pair, but it's not paired right now!!

This is a gambling spot, if you dont want to be in this spot then fold PF.

flat>shove>fold IMO ... GL ... and the only reason I flat more often than shove is to entice extra chips into the pot.

QFT

Fold Pre? Come on guys.

Calling this pre is perfectly standard. You've got position on 5 people with an easy to play post flop hand. Calling with Axs is beautiful in this spot because the vast majority of players at this level will not fold a flush. They just chalk it up to a cooler when they get stacked and then reload.

OTF, I might just make it $150 to try to get MP2 all in. IMO, this is a great spot to get the money in with a lot of equity for less than half your stack and instantly turn your hand over to show the table "you're a maniac". You have a good opportunity to create a crazy image while also having at worst (disregarding J8) 9 outs to the nuts. My only concern is that UTG wants to come along, but really I'm not that torn up about it. Hell, if both of them came along, it might be pretty close to mathematically correct.

calling pre is fine. it is a really tough spot given stack sizes. i think i would be fine with either a shove or a fold. when you play weak suited aces and you flop the nut flush it really hard to justify a fold, because then why are you playing the hand in the first place?

Suited aces play decently multi-way and we're getting more than 20:1 in implied odds, so calling pre is nifty.

On the flop, do whatever you think will invite the most players into the hand for the most amount of money. Generally, you don't want to thin the field when you are on the nut draw, you want everybody in the pot with you.

side note: ummm... why do you think UTG has a set? He was preflop raiser, right? can't he have at least JJ, QQ, KK, and AA in his range too?

I keep finding myself in these spots!

Beautiful multiway flop.
Fishy player 3bets.
Stack to pot ratio is near 1.
Hero starts seeing monsters under the bed. Looks for a fold.
*folds*

Am I losing my gambol here?

I really, REALLY need to better grasp the maths involved.


I know!?


I don't hear that was maths is ok too often! I needed to considered my equity in this hand if all 3 of us get it in. I stoved it and even if they come up with sets I'm not too far behind.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.723% 29.46% 00.27% 239400 2160.00 { Ah6h }
Hand 1: 35.138% 28.58% 06.56% 232233 53337.00 { TT-99, 77, J8s, T9s, J8o, T9o }
Hand 2: 35.138% 28.58% 06.56% 232233 53337.00 { TT-99, 77, J8s, T9s, J8o, T9o }


Not folding pre here. Ever.

Sorry, it was early in the session and I had no prior reads.


I've been playing live for 2 years now I still haven't made my mind up about this, its obviously different with more people in the pot but generally I used to both win and lose huge pots in this spot so I stop chasing draws when I would be committing 2/3 of my stack. I'm not scared money it's just something I'm unsure of as a noobie.

It maybe skewed thinking but the games are always soft here and JJ could be in his range, but he's definitely raising more with QQ+ IMO.

Fold pre would be really bad
Need reads but probably jam, you're flipping against any range and you can get UTG to fold a lot of TP or overpairs if he's not a drooler

In original post you say that if you just call the initial bet(s), that it will be multi-way all-in on the flop where the pot is $490 with you needing to call about $110 to chase.

$490+$110 = $600. So, you'll need to pay $110 to win $600, getting about 6:1 on a call. You're like a 3:1 or 2:1 dog here. That is a HUGE overlay, and, as good players an overlay is *exactly* what we are after. (+EV and overlay are same thing).

Don't shove if you think you have little or no fold equity and calling will invite more players (you *want* that pot to get up to $600, your EV goes up as the pot goes up). If you think there is a decent amount of fold equity and nobody else really wants to play a big pot for stacks, then by all means shove and take the pot now. Get it?

Clifs: Big draw and no FE? get as many players and as many chips into the pot as you can (usually by playing passive). Big draw but with FE? get aggro and semi-bluff to try and take it down.


Ok, yeah, I think you have a glitch in your thinking here. Above, you say that you have no reads on the table, but here you're giving me a pretty specific read. We only had a cbet from this guy, right? I mean, he could have unimproved overcards in his range, too.

I think, in general, the ranges you stoved are worst case scenario and not realistic... people will show up with wider ranges than you're giving them credit for (and, your equity is higher as a result... your ace is live some percentage of the time here).

Don't be afraid to lose a pot - play correct rather than trying to be perfect.

$100 worth of dead money and a fairly strong draw. I probably just shove and hope UTG folds.

If we shove, UTG folds and MP folds we are usually in a fairly profitable spot.

If we shove, UTG calls and MP calls its still a decent spot.

Another benefit: We get a gambly image and get paid off when we have a made hand later.

this is a fairly legit statement.

^^
I agree with fun101,

You flopped honestly great for you hand, so, if you say you are never folding it pre- grab your nuts and hold on, don't be afraid to play it hard and fast...

But you have to be ready, never fold in this spot if you are not folding it pre.

ALSO, player descriptions are huge so thats going to be the x factor for anyone on the fence.

Calling PF is fine but I don't see how it's the great move that others think it is. Stack sizes aren't big, we will often be dominated which means hitting top pair won't be a great hand for us, and I know we have position and a very small chance to hit the nut flush, but I don't see how PF really matters that much if you're calling or folding. I like having all those opponents in the hand but even if we're lucky enough to flop top pair we're going to have a hard time knowing where we're at.

Also even if we hit our flush, it's going to be easy for the other players to see. It's not the same as hitting a straight on the board that's hard for players to notice or put us on, or hitting a set.

If we strongly consider folding the flop in situations like this, then a call PF has less value.

From reading the comments I almost get the feeling that people think we're folding something like pocket tens. I think a call is okay but I'm not thrilled about my hand in this spot or anything like that.

I really appreciate your breakdown, I 100% agree with what you said here, I'll keep those cliffs in mind and best take advantage of my implied odds. I don't know why I stoved the worse case scenarios either.


That was my thinking at the time except the part about the flush being obvious.