Playing a a local Dog track/Poker Room in Florida .

Hero 33 hispanic Male just finished the 6:30PM tournament there finishing 1st and decide to play 1-2

I sit at the table with 100BB and after 1 hour my image is tight agresive.

Villian 1 seems like an avg weak player and is siting in the CO not many hands i seen her in but looks like she likes to bet small when she has it and bigger when she doent. Has around 160$ behind.

Villian 2; 28 year old white male sitting in the SB. Seems semi compedendent maybe an Avg reg has me covered 310$ behind. No hand Histories.

Early position calls 2$

Middle position (avg reg) raises to 9$

Villian 1 calls 9$ 151 behind

Button calls 9$

Villian 2 calls in the SB calls 9$ 301 behind

Hero 5c6c calls 186$ behind

Limper calls 7$ more

5 way pot 36$ in the pot

Flop comes 2c 8h 4s

SB checks 301$ behind

I flop double gutter and I check 186$ behind

Intial limper checks

Pre-Flop raiser checks

Villian 1 bets 12$ 139 behind

Button calls 12$

Villian 2 calls 12$ 289 behind

I decided to call 12$ 174$ behind-knowing im geting more then enoufh to call if i hit. I this point i put Villian 1 on 99 or 1010s or top pair good kicker maybe a set. Villian 2 overs but not sure yet.

Limper folds

Original raiser folds

85$ in the pot

Turn is a Jc so board is 2c 8h 4s Jc

Villian 2 checks

Hero checks (i believe this is better option to betting with 3 players still im)turn gives me a flush to go with my OESD

Villian 1 bets 25$ 114 behind

Button folds

Villian 2 raises to 50$ 239$ behind

I have a desision to make at this point ( villian 1 allready starts cutting out chips to raise before i even act) I decised to call because i feel that Villian 1 is going to push and villian 2 will go all in so i will be geting paid or felted either way so i believe its going to go all in the middle efectively making it 174$ to win 448$ 622$ total.

I figure even if im up against 2 sets its the right play but i could be 2 pair vs a set AJ and over pair on the flop what it seems like to me. What do u guys think? I have 5c6c for a double gutter/flush draw.

What do you have? Edit into main lost please

I did i put 5c6c for a double gutter/flush draw

It's very close. You are getting about 2.5/1 as about a 2.3/1 dog.

Pre is pretty bad, this is a fold.

Given how passively the table is playing, the flop worked out ok, although I lead the very dry flop here most of the time at a passive table.

On the turn, I think you really need to give V1 and V2 ranges and run pokerstove. It's likely to be very close from an EV perspective.

K, well first your post is a little hard to follow. But here's some analysis for you.

Preflop: Fine

Flop: Meh... I'm not sure I like this check. Even into a multi-way pot. The board is super dry and no-one hit much of anything, other than a possible 8. But I don't think its horrible either. I prefer to bet out and see what happens. (this also has the advantage that villains will often auto define you as a TP type hand.)

Turn: Ok first real decisions coming up. You turned a flush draw to do with your double-gutter. K, so that gets you 15 outs for river, or 32.6%. You've got a tightish villain betting the a super dry flop, and then continuing on the turn when overcard hits. Check-raised by the SB who you described as a "semi-competent to average reg". This screams strength. You are thinking at least one of them has the set. So lets do the basic math. You're getting $448/$174 = 2.57:1 You have 13 outs, (can't count the board pairs). Your odds are 28.2% or 2.55:1. This about as break even as you can get.

However, this is not as pretty picture as you think. First off, you are basing all of this on the ungiven assumption that both villains are getting it in. If you are correct you are only break even. This is not even a +EV spot if that happens! What happens when one of the villains (say villain 2) decides to fold the others shove? Then this becomes a bad -EV spot.

You put villain1 on a range on the flop bet. Haven't re-evaluated that on the turn, and have yet to range villain2. Yet, have decided that both players must have sets and are itching to get it all in. Sounds like you're reaching for a reason to shove your chips in. This is a poor thinking.

I think that you have to find a fold here. If you're right that villain1 is coming over the top then you can't call. Sucks to have draws OOP in multi-way pots. Calling/shoving here loses money every time all the $'s don't go into the middle.

Also, I forgot to add. What happens when one of villains is moving in here with 8cXc?? You lose even more outs. You want to say they are both going all in to justify a call... yet have them pegged on only one possible hand type. Set over Set. This is not all the common. Find a better spot.

I put set's 2 pair and flush draws in their range and you are way behind. I'm folding



44,226 games 0.025 secs 1,769,040 games/sec

Board: 2c 8h 4s Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.765% 29.77% 00.00% 13164 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 48.603% 48.41% 00.20% 21408 87.00 { 88, 44, 22, Ac8c, Ac5c, J8s, 42s, J8o, 42o }
Hand 2: 21.632% 21.44% 00.20% 9480 87.00 { QQ-88, 44, 22, A8s, Kc8c, Qc8c, A8o }

I also feel as their range is tighter than this especially when you say V1 is getting out raising chips before you even act.

This is what I was going to say after reading OP. If we give at least one of them a set, then we take away two of our club outs leaving us with 13 total. We then have to ask whether our seven remaining club outs are truly clean. A 8 is a reasonable expectation in a spot like this. If we expect to see that hand 1/2 the time, we could estimate that we have six clean outs and 3.5 "maybe" outs. 9.5/44 river possibilities gives us roughly 4/1 odds, and we're not getting a price that matches that. Fold.

Well thank u for the responses, the villians 1 hand was a set of 22s and Villian 2s hand a set if JJs i did bink the river with a 7s but thanks for helping me see it clearly

Don't have time to comment now other than to say I don't think the hand range calculation above is all that helpful because it makes some pretty absurd assumptions about hand ranges.

+1 ..I don't see hand ranges being relevant at all. All our outs that don't complete a boat should be good vs these villains. It's a slightly +ev spot. It's just a matter of if it is personally a good spot for you to play a big pot. (Based on bankroll, future table dynamics, etc).

OP CR flop to 35-45. you will take down the pot a decent chunk of the time.

i am choosing to cr here because on a wheel board in a single raised pot someone can easily be in there with A2/A3/A4/A5 and someone can be peeling with KQ due to the cheap 12 dollar bet. the initial bettor can also have two cards as far as i am concerned barring a read of 'bets only when he has it'

also because of the bdfd, i can turn a club and just shove any club turn

as played you can fold the turn or just call if you feel you are never getting raised all in, neither is that bad.

agree with this, pokerstove does not get to account for the ****** factor which varies villian to villian.

reread op and saw this was a raised pot so i think we can eliminate some of the hands i posted like j8/42 os but would love to hear what you have to say just for discussion.

how can hand ranges not be relevant? you could only say that by thinking all our outs are live but in reality our flush outs could be no good. even if we know that they both have sets we are still only %30 to win.