I wasn't in this hand but I saw it play out and wanted to know what you would have done.

effective stack sizes:

UTG+3: $700
UTG+5: $550
Button: $600

Were only about an hour in and so far the table has been really tight. Not a lot of action until this hand.

Action folds around to UTG+3 who raises to 10. Folds to UTG+5 who rr to 35. Button wakes up with AA (has A diamonds) and rr to 75, UTG+3 calls, UTG+5 just calls.

Flop Q diamonds, 9 diamonds, 2 clubs.

UTG+3 shoves all in for $625?!?! UTG+5 folds. (AK suited? JJ? 1010? he never showed) Button?? I already know what UTG+3 has, but I want to know what you guys would put her range at?? Are we calling or folding here with AA?

I'll post results after I get enough responses.

Raise more pre, like at least $100. Not crazy about calling off 250 bigs with one pair.

Definitely need to raise more pre like previous posted said.

As played, I'm snap folding without more reads. This deep and with the terrible 3bet sizing, you're easily up against Q9 two pair, a set, or a monster combo draw.

Call. If she's got QQ/99 then you've got two outs and that's a real strange way to play a flopped set. The over shove is KK/AQ so much more often. 22/Q9 are probably not in the raise pre/call 4b range.

cause I'm kind of a chicken sh-t with big PP, I'd make that 4 bet around $120.

What a gross spot. Puke fold, and try to geode her into showing. You're just too deep to be going down with 1 pair.

UTG + 3 raised about 1.4x pot.

UTG + 5 raised about 1.1x pot.

Button raised about 0.5x pot. 118 would be 1x pot.

I really dislike the sizing.

Can't fold an overpair, on a draw-heavy board, in a 4-bet opt.

Well this is my thought process through out this whole hand: Why would you shove on a Q,9,2 flop?!?! I've thought about this hand for a while now and honestly. KK isn't shoving this flop, cuz of button possibly having AA. JJ-1010 arent in her range. 2 pair like Q-9 is out of the question, if you ask me. And 22 is out of her range as well.

So what does that leave us with? AK, AQ, QQ/99 even though personally I don't think she would call a 4b with 99. If I have AA in this spot I'm calling and if she shows QQ then we still have outs. Plus runner runner diamonds for the Nut flush.

Results

So you're going broke with just one pair? That's just dumb when you're 250BBs deep. I'm half stupid and even I know that's not smart.

It's a 4b pot and AA is losing to just about nothing though.

Hero cold 4bet pre which is basically QQ+ and AK in most 1/2 player's eyes. It's not that crazy to think that someone would open jam better than one pair knowing that they're likely facing an overpair that won't fold.

That being said, it's 1/2 and people overvalue hands all the time and I've been in situations like this where I sigh fold and they confidently roll over top top like it was the nuts.

Read results, not surprised.

+2 Alex, and wq94

Crow, you're probably not the best poker player. I'm not folding AA here, when she just calls the 4bet and then openly shoves the flop. To me this screams AQ. The correct play if she has QQ is to check the flop, let me bet, then she can jam over the top. Just my two cents. But I didn't like her play at all, so I'm calling.

I'm raising more pre and I'm calling the shove. I'd expect to see KK but I see she had AQ. If she made this move with a flopped set, then she's straight up mentally ill.

I have seen an OMC raise pre-flop from UTG+1 and then jam $325 (stack of green chips) into a $100 pot on a Kxx flop. He then showed KK and stated that he had to protect his set from the flush draw. So it does happen. *Shrug*

So are you stacking off here against a possible FD or set? In one post you weren't crazy about it, and this one sounds like you talked yourself into it.


LOL thanks for pointing out the obvious here. The only thing I can say is with no reads on chickie, this is a puke fold until I see that she is capable of dumb sh-t like this. Now the next time, it would be a snap call, knowing she will stack off with TPTK. You get what I'm saying?

When they want to hand you lots of cash, you don't turn them down. You snippity snap call and say nice hand lady, congrats if you got it. Then the poker gods smile down upon you and place an ace right on the turn. And that's how poker works...

It's not the fact that we have one pair that's relevant. Plenty of times I suggest folding straights and flushes when it seems obvious they're beat.

The Villain didn't call a 4-bet pre, to check-fold this draw-heavy queen high flop with AQ. Nothing at all surprising about the Villain wanting to take this large pot down on the flop, or put someone with a draw to a test.

For folding to be correct you'd have to believe that Villains call 4-bets and then fold whenever they don't hit a set.

Nothing has happened to narrow Villain's range down to QQ exactly. Exactly the opposite, Villain probably never plays QQ this way.

For all those who "snap call", how deep do you have to be to not stack off? I'm curious.

shrug snap

I don't understand the question. We're virtually never behind as played.

If I was the Hero, I'd be planning on getting stacks in the pot by the turn.

I've folded full-houses on the flop when it was clear I was drawing dead. I wasn't deep. If I thought we were behind I'd fold to a tiny bet, after all we only have two outs if we're behind.

This situation isn't close at all.

If we potted preflop, as we should have, I'd call off at least 500bb. I never play deeper than that.

How deep would you have to be to raise pre-flop and fold unless you hit top-set? That's the question you're asking.

Why do you mention a FD like it's a bad thing?

And yeah, when somebody just overbet jams here, I just assume they aren't a very good player, so I don't care that a live 4bet at 1/2 is always like KK+ for 95% of players. People are dumb. Case in point; she has AQ.

No I don't get what you're saying. You really think you don't have any reads on her??? Her shove isn't telling you anything?! Then not to mention her pf play. She opens for 10 then just calls 65 more. If she had QQ, she is going to rr not just call. And if that's the case then stacks are getting it in pf.

If you're going to stack off 500BBs with one pair, against an unknown villain, you are every bit as bad as the V.


Stop reading things that aren't there. (you've done it before) I assume by previous sentence you stack off 500 BBs

You're right. I thought more about that later and realized there shouldn't be anything but J10dd. With that small of a 4 bet, wouldn't you have to have J10dd in the range?

I get what you're saying, but we have zero (or OP didn't put any) reads on villain here. Like I said earlier, next time in similar situation, it's a snap call with a smile.

Not where I play. I'll ask a friend of mine who plays about 1000 hrs a yr if he's ever seen QQ 5bet.

If you raise and it goes 3 bet--small 4 bet--Do you seriously think QQ is EVER good enough to 5 bet?

I think the small 4 bet gives any PP good enough implied odds to set mine in a 3 way pot.

I have literally never seen a villain take this line with a flopped set. Ever.

Readless, I'm calling and pretty happy about it. If I have the faintest of reads that she's really that awful to do with TPTK then I'm even happier about it.

I don't understand logic like "Can't play a pot that big with one pair" because you're throwing villain's range out the window and relying only on your own range and hand strength to decide. If you think you have the best hand, put the money in. It doesn't matter how many BB's it is.

So, there is 0% chance he is bluffing here so that's out of the question. Another problem is this is the first real hand with any action, so there are no reads on anyone.

Before we get into the action though, take a look at this. Its an article on player position at the poker table.

So, UTG+3 would actually be MP which raises to $10. UTG+5 would be the Cutoff or CO which then 3 bets to $35 and then we have the button which is the hero of the story with AdAx who makes a tiny tiny 4bet to $75.

OTB I would personally bump this to $120+ and attempt to isolate and get max value. As played though, we go to the flop. Q92

I assume MP then shoved for the rest of his stack immediately. I INSTANTLY put him on a set here though. QQ or 99. What's he flatting a 4bet 3ways with pre? 22-QQ would be my guess. At WORST maybe he shows up with something like J10? I could MAYBE see that showing up if we have a super LAG villian but I seriously doubt that.

CO folds, as he should with his AK and of course, button sighs and calls. GG.

I'd hate to see a bluff shown but even if he's just up against a flush draw, he isn't more than a 60% favorite. Against J10 hes a coin flip. Against 99 or QQ 10%.

Fold

EDIT: I forgot to mention that had we bet like we should have pre, this would be an instant call. We have no reads on villian and we have no way of knowing if they are willing to go broke with TPTK at this point but this is a pretty safe flop for us. This is why bet sizing is so important though. We only have 37.5BB invested here and the pot is only 112.5BB before the massive shove over the top. We have 262.5BB behind and with the shove 425BB in the pot. We get less than 2:1 for our stack and we are behind most of the time here.

Double fold.

With results, smile and say "Ah you got me. NH" and look for EVERY spot we can to go to value town on this fish. We know have a GREAT read on villian and know they are willing to go broke with TPTK.

Grunch (means didn't read replies): Too small a 4-bet pre, as I'm certain many pointed out.

AP, this is AQ with no diamond wanting to price out "draws" most of the time from a "generic" female player, though more reads would help. For a more aggro player, there is JdTd in her range too. For a really bad player, some 99, but even a scared player with a set will almost always CRAI given it's a 4-bet pot, not open shove.

Pot is $225, so SPR (stack to pot ratio) is 2.33-1. I'm never folding an overpair for that little on a wet board in a 4-bet pot. I'm sure some responders are calling it "OMG 262BBs," but it's really just 2x-pot. We need 40% equity to call. Even if we give her all of the set combos to go with AQ, we still have 44% equity, with a more realistic but still pessimistic range (all 99 combos), we have a massive 65% equity.

Snap call. Off to read responses.