Just sat at the table so reads are not well defined

V1 (800)- 50 yo white female, saw her put in 90 pf with 55 in a 4 way pot vs 2 shortstacks and a 150bb stack
V2 (240)- 25 yo south american
Hero's Image (320)- 25 yo white male

Preflop (3):
Hero is MP dealt KQ,
V1 limps UTG, Hero raise to 10 from MP, V2 calls from LP, blinds fold, V1 calls.

Flop (30):
763
V1 checks, Hero bets 20, V2 raises to 60, V1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn (149):
6
Hero checks, V2 bets 60, Hero calls.

River (269):
3
Hero checks, V2 jams for 110, Hero folds.

What was your pf raise trying to accomplish? V1 is pretty much never folding for another 8. I definitely don't play KQs from EP, MP is on the border. I might just fold it, but I'm a nit. If you're going to raise definitely raise more. I don't think limping is too bad of an option though.

AP, definitely c-betting here. Once we get raised I might just fold. If it were the nfd it's b a way different story. But we don't even know if clubs are good, paring the K or Q might not be either, we have pretty much no real/confident outs.

AP, I give it up 100% of the time ott with a c/f. I rarely chase fd's that aren't the nfd, and rarely chase them when the board has paired. And our hand is face up imo at this point. And V has shown he's committed with a < 1/2 PSB remaining for the river.

I am raising pf for value, dominate most Kx and Qx.

I guess I could fold to flop raise, it is borderline but I am pretty sure my flush outs are good, doubt my overs are good if hit one.

Turn is the real tough spot. I am getting close to direct odds if my flush outs are good. I'm not sure how to interpret the smallish sizing by villain, is he already full?

PF, I'd raise more if it's for value. No downside to taking it down preflop, but depending on exactly which seat we have, it might not be late enough to know we can raise for value here comfortably. Btn/hj/co I go with a (larger) raise. I don't know how profitably we can play this in earlier than those spots.

Without any information on V2, because we're so new to the table, I wouldn't get too deep into a spot like this. It's really difficult to say what range V2 can have, it's basically just a guess. This line (inc. river) looks like any flopped set. OTR it looks not like a flush draw missed, but up through the turn we have no idea how he'd play a fd (nfd or otherwise) because we just sat down.

Yeah I guess without better reads, c/f turn is best line.

PF no issue ... fine for most 1-2 action that I have seen if you are comfortable playing this hand OOP should you get a couple behind you calling. Although this hand looks pretty it is VERY easy to fold as well.

Good to c-bet, but I think it might not get much credit on this board depending on your image (if you have one). You can really only be repping an overpair here or the draw you actually have!!

Once you get played back at on the Flop and V1 folds out then you need to make a decision before you put more chips into the middle. V2 has already committed 30% of his stack so with much more action he will be all in.

Fold/Call Flop: You are calling 40 into 110, so this is not a bad way to go with 2 overs and 2nd flush draw. I dont see most players folding here AP even if you are up against a tight player that wont pay off your flush.

Raise/Shove Flop: With 2 overs and a flush draw you are actually ahead of 1010 here with 2 cards to come. You might even get them to fold their hand as well. This play is certainly better with the nut flush draw, but I have seen it plenty with worse. This is a play to make so you aren't faced with a Turn decision like you are AP.

You have to make up your mind on Flop how you are going to continue to play the hand on the Turn. Most will c/f Turn in this spot AP. You cant expect to get a fold to a shove here but you are still getting 'exactly' the right price to call against 1010. Question here is are you going to get paid on the River if you hit a K/Q/flush? If not, then you need to put the rest of your stack in or fold out. You arent playing the hand to break even in the long haul, right?

River is a must fold. Without an Ace you can only win against a worse missed strt/flush draw. You may have been lucky against Ac3c!!

You have to decide if you want to gamble here on the Flop as I really see the Turn action as bleeding chips in the long run. You can re-take control of the hand by shoving the Flop or leading the Turn. In either case you have to go with your read of the opponent and then act accordingly.

Some might consider the Flop call as bleeding chips as well, but I probably make this call most of the time. But once you miss AND the board pairs I think you really have to have a solid read before putting in more chips ... GL

The pf raise, 5xbb, and flop c-bet are relatively standard. You call Villain 2's raise,40:110, which is roughly break even odds to draw to the flush and positive if you include the over cards. The turn card pairs the board and you check and he bets 60:150 or 40% of pot. It's a small bet and so is likely a value bet but it could either represent a made fh or an over-pair (88-1010) trying to determine where he is in the hand. The bet gives you 60:210 or 3.5:1 to call. None of your outs are necessarily good but if we count the 9 outs to the second nut flush your ~18% to make the flush or 5.5:1 against and you're only getting 3.5:1 to call so it's a fold. If you also count your two over cards you have 15 outs or a ~30% to call or 3.3:1 against making the hand and you're getting 3.5:1 to call and so calling is slightly positive. However, not knowing your opponent, the fact that you could be drawing dead, you're unlikely to get paid for made flush by 88-1010 on the river and recognizing that there will be and certainly are better value spots than this situation folding the turn can't be a bad play. As played the river is a clear fold.

Once the board pairs the turn must be a fold.

KQss is a damn good hand in your position, anyone who says fold pre when not UTG+1 or UTG is on crack

I probably just shove the flop after he raises.


He has 88-JJ in his range which you are ahead of. Also lots of combo draws. You have some Fold Equity against a chunk of his range, and lots of equity against his range. Calling flop leads to awkward turn play whether you hit or not.


As played, snap fold turn.

I love KQ suited in mid position. I would make it 14-15 though. As played I am calling flop raise and folding to the turn bet. If you had more reads on villians you could have possibly come back over the top on the flop and committed. But, without reads I would have flatted as well.

check back flop

results oriented fish

delete

seems odd to get angry over this... but whatever bro..

Now I'm not saying checking back is definitely the correct play... but on that board texture I see our perceived range versus villains perceived range as very difficult to play as a bet..

It's hard for us to hit this board very hard.. and the villain can certainly smash it... not sure how to construct a limp call preflop range tho.

perhaps I'm giving 1/2 players to much credit. But I think betting allows the villain to play perfectly. Like I said perhaps I'm wrong and we miss a ton of value because 1/2 players just c/c all worse hands/draws and some better ones.

I'm open to math/ game theory that supports the contrary?

Well we should bet this flop because...

1) we are ahead of any random range
2) we are ahead of most draws
3) we the best opportunity to fold a 1 pair hand later by betting now
4) we are ahead of medium overpairs (the medium/top of anyone's range on this flop)
5) betting just makes us tougher to play against in general.
6) we are in position, allowing us the best chance to fold out a hand later.
7) we are in position, making it easier to value bet when we do hit.

list goes on

and I didn't mean to be a jerk, not my intention at all, I just see a lot of posters itt that offer a weak tight strategy of not betting in HH when we actually got raised off in that particular hand

Yeh they are fairly logical considerations.. I guess I'm just concerned that its very easy for villains to turn value hands into successful bluffs when we bet. which I guess means that I don't agree with No. 5.

Perhaps in real life the value missed from checking back outweighs the money we lose from folding incorrectly.

someone with more time could do the appropriate calculations.. but I imagine a villian could c/r b successfully alot of the time against our range.

A concept which should be relatively clear to a competent player. Even at that villain could legitamtely be playing 89ss 85ss 910ss this way.

In summation I think when we bet villain can make us fold the best hand alot. In reality, I concede, the villain rarely will and we miss a ton of value..

Just some game theory considerations... perhaps in-exploitable is not most profitable.

Not a jerk.. and thanks for the reply, discussion is good... I enjoy the perspective and will try and apply it

^^ Low stakes games aren't aggro enough that villains are going to blow us off the hand, and if they are, its a rare player. I'm not sure how often you play, but the low stakes player pool is quite passive as a whole. And when we get it in we are flipping with a range of sets, 88-JJ, FD type hands on flop, so blowing us off the hand is not going to happen all the time even if we are betting this.

I probably shove flop. But I dont mind the variance.

I think this is a clear cbet otf, I have the lead as the pfr, 2nfd+2 overs is a reasonably strong hand.

I don't think 3bet jamming the flop is a good play because I don't think we have much FE. Hands that call a shove have a considerable equity edge. Hands that fold we are ahead of equity wise so we want to keep them in. I used to be over aggressive with good draws be I learned it was a huge leak.