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1/2 KQs in 3-bet 1/2 KQs in 3-bet

08-09-2019 , 10:36 PM
1/2, $300 stacks, it folds to a quiet guy who's over limped into some pots and tended to play passively for an hour. My image is a bit aggro, been 3-betting the other TAGs in this home game.

Villain raises to $8 in middle position. It folds to Hero in CO with KdQd and makes it $25. Villain calls.

Comments on all streets please. I'm a limit fish trying to push past my limits.

Flop ($53):
AdJd5h

Villain donks for $15
Hero calls

Turn ($83):
8c

Villain bets $30
Hero calls

River ($143):
Kc

Villain bets $40
Hero ?

I didn't think he was going to go anywhere if I raised and he was betting so little that I was pretty happy to just draw each street.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-09-2019 , 10:37 PM
Just start raising flop
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-09-2019 , 10:37 PM
Could you explain the reason please? Trying to learn.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 04:22 AM
Call pre. This V type probably isn't raising QJs here. You are probably dominated or against JJ or maybe TT if you're lucky.

A passive V decides to donk on a A high board. It comes down to whether you think you can make him fold something like AQ here which is a dangerous proposition and more than likely the bottom of his range. I love raising and barreling with combo draws, believe me, but this type of V is someone I hold back on and just call. He gave you a great price on the turn so another call is good and a brick river is a fold. Be happy you got to the river super cheap. You played it fine.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 06:14 AM
I would raise bigger pre, to 30-32, the same sizing I would use if he had raised to 10. I think 8 would be considered a very small raise and 25 would hardly be taken seriously as a 3bet sizing, and I don't want to invite the rest of the table in. I think an extra 5-7 bucks can accomplish that.

On the flop I would definitely raise. He donkbets supersmall... I have no reason to believe he has a very strong hand and at the moment I have K high, so let's put him to the test. I also want to avoid the exact scenario that played out here, that he keeps donking and I keep calling and missing. By raising flop (and betting/shoving turn you make use of your FE against a presumably rather weak range and you build the pot for when you hit one of your 11-12 nut outs. And if he wants to get it in on the flop, that's fine too.

Last edited by Homey D. Clown; 08-10-2019 at 06:22 AM.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 06:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
I would raise bigger pre, to 30-32, the same sizing I would use if he had raised to 10. I think 8 would be considered a very small raise and 25 would hardly be taken seriously as a 3bet sizing, and I don't want to invite the rest of the table in. I think an extra 5-7 bucks can accomplish that.

On the flop I would definitely raise. He donkbets supersmall... I have no reason to believe he has a very strong hand and at the moment I have K high, so let's put him to the test. I also want to avoid the exact scenario that played out here, that he keeps donking and I keep calling and missing. By raising flop (and betting/shoving turn you make use of your FE against a presumably rather weak range and you build the pot for when you hit one of your 11-12 nut outs. And if he wants to get it in on the flop, that's fine too.
H didn't specifically say but it sounds like this V isn't opening for too many raises. Id say the V has a very tight/strong range here but OP didn't really say. A weak/passive person is not leading on a A high flop with anything other than an ace.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
I would raise bigger pre, to 30-32, the same sizing I would use if he had raised to 10. I think 8 would be considered a very small raise and 25 would hardly be taken seriously as a 3bet sizing, and I don't want to invite the rest of the table in. I think an extra 5-7 bucks can accomplish that.

On the flop I would definitely raise. He donkbets supersmall... I have no reason to believe he has a very strong hand and at the moment I have K high, so let's put him to the test. I also want to avoid the exact scenario that played out here, that he keeps donking and I keep calling and missing. By raising flop (and betting/shoving turn you make use of your FE against a presumably rather weak range and you build the pot for when you hit one of your 11-12 nut outs. And if he wants to get it in on the flop, that's fine too.

+1

I agree on the principle that the other poster said about this being a tight villain and that his donking range also likely is pretty strong- but i think we just flopped too much raw equity here to not raise and push all the fold equity we can squeeze out of this spot. If we can put the pressure on this guy and make him fold an A because he dont want to stackoff with top pair and we take down the pot with K high that would be an amazing result.

If we had a smaller flushdraw or not the extra outs with the gutshot as well i might want to take the "safer" call option, but the way we smashed this flop with piles of nut outs i am bombing flop here and see if he is ready to play for it all.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 06:55 AM
His bet sizing is terrible so I'd assume that he is an inexperienced player. With a read that he's passive, his range for 3bet calling is going to be pretty tight. Most players will only donk bet with a decent, but vunerable hand or a draw trying to set a price with this profile. Since the best draw he has is a T-high FD, I'd discount that. Therefore, I'd just call here. A raise will simply bloat the pot and your semi-bluff has no fold equity. If you go to 60, the pot on the turn will be 170 with 215 behind. Not much room to maneuver. If the FD hits, he's going to x/f.

He's giving you direct odds to call. When someone gives you a gift, you should just take it.

Oh, and if you're playing in a home game where most of the players are TAGs, you need to find a better home game.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
H didn't specifically say but it sounds like this V isn't opening for too many raises. Id say the V has a very tight/strong range here but OP didn't really say. A weak/passive person is not leading on a A high flop with anything other than an ace.
I don't think we have enough information to automatically assume any of this. All I see is a guy opening very small and calling a small 3bet. When he donkbets between 1/4 and 1/3 pot (!), his range should be wider than Ax. Jx is surely in it and who knows what else, and even if he has an ace, which is not unlikely, that doesn't mean it's always AK/AQ. He can have lots of aces he's not willing to play for stacks with.

Quote:
a quiet guy who's over limped into some pots and tended to play passively for an hour.
This can be anyone for an hour. This can be me for an hour, and has been many times when I was carddead and not hitting anything. Being passive for a mere one hour doesn't mean he's definitely not gonna open A9s or whatever in MP. And after his baby donkbet I'm pretty much labeling him as someone who likely doesn't know what he's doing anyway and could have god knows what.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
His bet sizing is terrible so I'd assume that he is an inexperienced player. With a read that he's passive, his range for 3bet calling is going to be pretty tight. Most players will only donk bet with a decent, but vunerable hand or a draw trying to set a price with this profile. Since the best draw he has is a T-high FD, I'd discount that. Therefore, I'd just call here. A raise will simply bloat the pot and your semi-bluff has no fold equity. If you go to 60, the pot on the turn will be 170 with 215 behind. Not much room to maneuver. If the FD hits, he's going to x/f.

He's giving you direct odds to call. When someone gives you a gift, you should just take it.

Oh, and if you're playing in a home game where most of the players are TAGs, you need to find a better home game.
Absolutely not true. There are spots where we have pretty much zero fold equity for a bunch of different reasons- but this is not one of them. If villain donks with a lonely top pair here for example, he is gonna hate life if we bomb the flop.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
Oh, and if you're playing in a home game where most of the players are TAGs, you need to find a better home game.
Typically I'd agree, but I'm playing this game for non monetary reasons as well: trying to make friends in a new city and wanting to learn more NL without driving to the local card room so often on the weekends.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci
Absolutely not true. There are spots where we have pretty much zero fold equity for a bunch of different reasons- but this is not one of them. If villain donks with a lonely top pair here for example, he is gonna hate life if we bomb the flop.
By the description of V he is not opening AT here. Its maybe AJ+ but probably AQ+. V is probably not betting 99-TT on this board but because most people post when they lose/get shown something weird I guess we put him on TT and just call down where calling the river in this spot in the real world will cost us 99% of the time?

What else can he have? My original read stands, AQ is the bottom of his range unless H made a misread on V. Were getting an awesome price to draw against someone who is only supposed to have a good ace here, the hand played itself.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote
08-10-2019 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper6788
Could you explain the reason please? Trying to learn.
Read tons of threads in here, and you'll absorb most of what you need to know at whatever your absorption rate is. Good advice or bad, you'll hear reasons for and against spots like this and hundreds of others.
1/2 KQs in 3-bet Quote

      
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