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Old 08-20-2015, 02:05 PM   #1
Mat the Gambler
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1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

I had just sat down at a new table, so no real reads on anybody. This was like the fourth or fifth hand I played.

I raise from early position $10 with KK. Four callers.

Flop is QJ8 rainbow. BB donks $20. I raise to $60. Everyone folds to BB who goes all-in for $200 total.

???
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:19 PM   #2
kookiemonster
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Fold.
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:24 PM   #3
hokie.521
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

I fold. I think readless BB shows you 2 pair+ wayy more often than AQ or KT. And I'd make it bigger preflop
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:43 PM   #4
Javanewt
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Fold.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:11 PM   #5
Mat the Gambler
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

No one thinks he's ever doing this with a one pair plus gutshot like QT, JT, TT or 99 here?
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:33 PM   #6
mappedout
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Hard to tell with no reads. PF he saw an early raise and then was getting 5to1 to call, so his range could include those hands. Donking the flop and then shoving to a raise make a set or 2P much more likely. He's probably more likely to flat your raise with a pair + gutshot, and not donk bet in the first place for that matter, but reads could change that.

You are losing to more of his probable range than you are beating. Just fold.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:34 PM   #7
hokie.521
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

If we had any history and/or reads that said player likes to mix it up a bit... maybe, but default against random guy I don't see it being a profitable call
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:37 PM   #8
kansaisupra
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

sucks but I fold. I see QJ here way too often J8 and Q8 and real possibilities. I'd just fold and find a better spot.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:03 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

agreed. easy fold. AP I would fold, but I would have just called his bet for pot control.
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:25 PM   #10
suited fours
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

AP, it's a call. Only need 31%. Hardly need to include any Tx in range to get there.
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:49 AM   #11
Burnit3x
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
No one thinks he's ever doing this with a one pair plus gutshot like QT, JT, TT or 99 here?
I never assume a player is capable of that until I've seen them do it.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:16 AM   #12
Buster65
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Easy call.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:52 AM   #13
johnyarmless
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

why are you raising otf ?
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:43 AM   #14
amh1121
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
I had just sat down at a new table, so no real reads on anybody. This was like the fourth or fifth hand I played.

I raise from early position $10 with KK. Four callers.

Flop is QJ8 rainbow. BB donks $20. I raise to $60. Everyone folds to BB who goes all-in for $200 total.

???
1) you raised from EP, so your range could easily have QQ and JJ here
2) BB was one of the last to call, decent odds, random players show up with 9T, QJ, all kinds of stuff here
3) BB doesn't seem to care that you raised a field of 5 players after his donk

with no reads, i fold it. you have taken a strong line and he still wants to get all the money in. the presence of the other players mean its less likely he is screwing around. if you call, what are you hoping to see? AQ? JT? 89ss? i have a hard time giving a heavy weighting to those kind of hands without a read...
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:40 AM   #15
SpexDome
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
No one thinks he's ever doing this with a one pair plus gutshot like QT, JT, TT or 99 here?
You're only slightly better than even money against those hands. Many have 10+ outs. Add that to the plethora of two-pair, straights, and sets you might be up against, and it's pretty obvious that there isn't much money to be made here.

LLSNL Commandment #6 - Don't pay off the fish.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:25 AM   #16
Mat the Gambler
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

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Originally Posted by johnyarmless View Post
why are you raising otf ?
Calling seems like a huge mistake. I feel like I'm ahead of his donk bet range, and there are enough turn cards that I'm afraid of. I think he will call with enough drawing hands, and no one at 1/2 is ever going to fold AQ or KQ on that flop so I get value from those hands.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:43 PM   #17
Illmatikk
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

Fold. i doubt he has the nuts; QJ seems very likely.
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Old 08-22-2015, 04:07 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 KK on semi-dangerous board

You should stop the hand when V donks $20 and discuss it then. Before you raise you should know how you'll react to a reraise. This is the wrong part of the hand to be discussing.
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