Vilain is old man, here are a couple hands he played.

hand 1: open utg to 7 with KQo, gets 3bet from mp to 21, flats and both check down KA589 board.

hand 2: He opens to 8 in hj K6dd and 3 barrels on KQ9J2 vs another young player that seemed scared money. obv turning his hand into s bluff

otth villain has 300£ to start
mp is a loose/passive player, he opens to 7£, Hero looks down at KK and 3bets to 25£, villain in the sb 4 bets to 76£.

Hero asks villain how mich he is playing and he excitedly shows stack to hero...

Hero ? call? shove? or fold what do u do??

This is on the line for me. Less than 150BB and I'm always happy to GII. If he weren't OM and/or hadn't cold 3b, I'd be happy to GII. Since he's obv not a tight OM and has some gambool in him, though, I'm still gonna go with it, even though I'm not so happy.

Shove, imo.

Never folding KK for 150bb. def raise, but why shove? Whats wrong 150-175?

If you raise to 150/175 are you ever folding to a shove? (125 more). The answer should be no. 5bet jam If he has aces I say "coolered" and reload.

I want his weaker hands to come in, Im not worried about losing, jamming may fold out worse, thats my fear!!

If he's not a mouth breather, 5-bet that is not AI looks way stronger than a shove.

Also, non-shove allows him a chance to play correctly OTF (for example, folding QQ on an A-high board).

Was KQo good in the first hand?
I assume he was called in the second hand?

What is *our* image? Do we look tight, laggy, nitty, passive and stupid, young and grinderish? Have we 3bet at all today?
I'm assuming that we cover.

Has he 3bet at all during the session?

I think that Im likely to flat here and go with it on all but Q high flops by ck/shoving.
(If we think that he will cold 4bet with AK here pre flop, then we can obv 5bet for value but if we don't think that he will then there's no reason that we should be worried about an Ace flopping. It didn't change the hand at all.

KQ was good in first hand vs TT. Hero imagine is young and grinderish.

So no one is favouring folding ?? I mean, villain has 300£ Behind after making the raise, he fold 4bet me preflop oop( which i reallly dont see him do that with AK, even QQ i would be surprised). Eff we are 375£ deep. Is flatting not setting oursed up for disaster since we are not setmining and assuming he doesnt do this wirh AK? I mean i think this is AA like 95% of the time.

Did you start 300 or 375 deep?

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he was 375£ deep to start, so effectively 185bb deep.

You're the one with the reads, so if that's what you think, fold. You're not deep enough to set mine. The examples you gave us don't support a 95% AA range, imo, though. Seems more like JJ+/AK based on his previous willingness to gamble.

As for how deep you are, 185BB deep is considerably different, imo. Are you sure that's what he started with? I ask because not only the thread title says 150BB, but in your OP you state "villain has 300£ to start."

Yes i did a mistake in the title i apologize for that. he actuallymhadn380£ tomstart the hand

In that case, I can often find a fold. We're getting deep enough that I don't care to GII without a read, and being that deep also makes his cold 3-bet range a bit stronger. Also it makes a shove from us a silly overbet, even though any smaller raise is still committing.

If we give him the other combo of KK and all 6 AA combos, how many other combos do we need in order to be +EV if we shove and he calls? We need 47% equity, as there isn't much dead money relative to remaining stacks.

One combo each of QQ and AKs isn't enough, as that only gets us to 32%. Giving him all 6 combos of QQ is plenty, obviously. Interestingly enough, giving him all AKs is not, partially as there are only 2 combos available, and partially due to the overcard. Giving him all AKo as well gets us to 47.2% Similarly, if we give him half of each of the combos of AK and of QQ, we are at 47.46% and are +EV.

Basically we need half of his range not to be AA. I don't think his range is near 95% AA, but it's almost certainly over 50%, so I think this is a fold.

I think you should call. 5bet shoving folds out everything but AA. You have 50 to call with 100 already in the pot and 300 IO. It's almost enough to try to flop a set. Assuming villain always cbets a AK/QQ+ range, you can use your position to evaluate the flop.

Call and GII on flops.
Based on history he seems fairly loose, fairly aggressive.

He plays pretty well vs us when we 5bet him. I've seen many people fold qq to 5-bets etc. Also if he is being a loosey goosey he will fold to a 5bet.

We're in position so it shouldnt be too hard to get value postflop.

thanks for that I think you covered it perfectly. I did end up folding and was wondering what others think.

I play a fair bit of live £1/£2, and I'm always speechless at how easily people stack off with QQ/AK/JJ. Even seemingly reggy guys in their 20's who seem () know what theyre doing (on first impressions) I've seen get in QQ for £600 pre.

I think in very particular cases you can maybe fold for 200BB (i.e. some players always min 3b lit AA and KK, but bigger sizes everythign else) but readless you have to stack off IMO.

I once opened KK UTG, tight guy who barely played any hands 3b me in MP, I 4b, he ships in rest of 200BB. I haaaaaaaaaate my life, call and he has JJ. I leave room in embarassment :P

^ The above is not my experience at all. I never see 4bets that are JJ or AK unless opponent is short stack shoving. Even QQ rarely 4bets at this level.

Folding is the play here. Your not getting exploited by folding to 4bets at this level. Also, don't stack off against an old guy without the nuts. We beat old guys by stealing small pots from them when they show weakness.

Folding KK pre to a 4bet for 50 bucks more in a $100+ pot? In position?
First of all, thats nit.
Second of all, thats nit.

If its not a shove, its certainly not a fold at this point. Its at the VERY least a call. You'll be in full control of what you invest on the flop depending on the action, and if a K comes you're golden. after you call that bet, you'll be getting a ton more information, a lot of it that might help you greatly, wether to shove or make a good laydown.

I can't believe some of you are suggesting folding.
Hell, V called a 3bet OOP with KQoff and 3barreled K6...I'm not giving his 4bet as much credit as some of you are. I think he's holding plenty of other hands, and might just be making a move for the dead money (although not that often).

I've plotted the EV of Villain's possible fold percentages vs. our equity when called (credits to Redchippoker who introduced this kind of plot in "Late Position"):



The worst case scenario is, he calls only with AA, we would still have 18% equity and would need less then 70% folds to break even with our shove.