Hey guys!

Hero/BB(200) Young 20s white, been at table for only 20 mins or so. no showdowns.

Villian/CO(150ish) 30s white with chips stacked in awkward manner (hence 150ish) Have seen him limp/call JJ.

3 limps including V

Hero makes it 12 with KK
MP calls
V re-raises to 30

Hero?

This looks so strange to me to L/RR in the CO?

Your unlikely to get a lot of help with this post,

heres my way to help this go somewhere;

What do you figure everyone thinks ?
theres one answer that virtually every player would agree with.
What do u think it is and whats ur other option and why?

Well I think this play is indicative of a big pair like KK+ However i Just can't believe a player would attempt to L/RR this in the CO with dead money already in the pot.

I think set mining is out of the question.

I just don't know if we can ever fold KK for 60bb.

With only 20 minutes of data I don't think I can fold KK here for 60bb, such a bizarre line to take overlimp-reraising from the CO, it may be aces a lot, I don't know but I'm putting the 60bb in and finding out the vast majority of the time.

Villian was not the first limper? IME overlimp/reraise is more weighted to smaller pairs than open-limp/reraise. Sometimes people just get mad that the BB didn't check. I know I'm never folding KK 60bb deep unless my opponent turns over AA.

I would have raised more pre. 17 or so is standard with 3 limpers OOP. They probably have the same calling range for 12 or 17, so get max value.

Is his limp/call with JJ your only basis for calling him weaktight? He's obviously a fish by his bad betsizing, and fish hate playing JJ (that and AK are the hands they complain about the most), so I wouldn't call that conclusive.

Given stack sizes I'm not seeing a fold here without more history. Over limping AA/KK in late position is just too weird, I'm not giving him credit here unless I have seen him do this sort of thing already. I would expect as much AK/QQ/JJ in his range as AA here, hands he wants to get heads up with you or which may think they are ahead of your squeeze attempt.

If MP is going to fold then you can just flat here and see what happens post flop. That gives you a better chance of stacking QQ/JJ type hands. However, you are way OOP, so if your not sure MP is going to fold, just shove now. Villain may read you for AK and call with worse pairs.

I like $17 pre.

Since when do we even discuss folding KK to a line like this?
Just go allin you only have 60bb! if he overlimped AA and got you to wake up with KK wow good hand buddy congrats. I think he could have 77+ AQ+ , maybe that's a bit optimistic but idk I could see him doing this bc he's annoyed with your bb raise and wants to have iniative in position.

given 75 BB stacks, and the fact that V overlimped from the CO cast enough doubt that this is not AA. re-raise to $80 for value and stack off on all-flops.

This is a snap reraise with only 75bb...we're just not folding KK pre here.

This is almost never AA as played. I'd just shove over the raise. He's not calling without AA. Then ask him when he folds, "Guess KJ was good, wasn't it?"

You're going to own him all night.

I assume you're not trolling, so I'm curious.

You've shoving because you only expect to get called by better?

I mean, I understand the meta involved in what you're after, but is that meta worth not stacking him in this hand with whatever crap hand he has?

^ I don't understand the shove either.

I was going to say the one thing not to do is shove. Keep all non-AA oddly played hands in his range and see a flop IP. Shoving is just creating the opportunity to fold some FPS hand.

If a lowball flop hits I gladly get ai then if V wants to. For 75BB I'm not folding KK, if he has AA, thank him for not topping off. But don't let weird LP l/rr hands fold pf.

4bet enough to have a PSB left behind to shove all flops.

His sizing scares me but you can't fold here. Flat and play post flop. With QQ I may dump it pre. Also have seen a few limp raises with QQ+ in late position so you can't complete discount those

This. Though I liked a 4-bet sizing of 72. Potato - Potato.

FWIW I have been seeing more late position l/r with AA in the past 6 months or so. Spots where I was always like "this is a mid pp that decided to take it down after a raise" and they show up with AA at showdown. I thought there must have been a card player article they all read while waiting for a seat or something.

Anyway I'd prob flat, keep his range wide and call him down for value some of the time and raise the rest. But raising only if he will spaz 5bet or set mine incorrectly. If he's always folding worse 4bet not as optimal.

Hero min-raises to 60

FLOP Kc8h9h

Hero open ships
V snaps with AK

well played.

I believe a min-raise is 48.

I'm just curious, were you min-raising intending to fold to a shove?

Yeah, as bad as it sounds I thought if he had AA he was going to 5bet shove and if he flats i know I have the best hand and can shove any flop. So I figured I would risk 60 instead of the full 140 or whatever he had.

Honestly I was just so out of place by his line I didn't know what to do lol

I really don't think this is in any way shape or form debatable;
if you'd told me you'd seen him take this line with KK and AA on the two other occasions he did this in the last five hours then I guess you could discuss the merits of this and that.

Really though this is just a standard raise and stack off pre-flop situation. I can't see it any other way and am surprised this actually sparked some conversation.

Just raise it up and call it off.

No, there is surely no article in any respectable medium that is advocating over limping AA and back raising it. Because that would be bad to do.

Think of all the stuff you should be iso raising in the spot the guy was in with AK. The fact that he did not iso with AK is God awful IMO. Prolly wouldn't have changed the outcome but that's actually sort of my point.

If you raise AA or over limp AA hoping to back raise, what hands are going to stack off against your back raise that would not stack off if you just raise it yourself? Hands that you beat maybe like AQ that is worried you have AA???

It was an awful play, God love them one and all for doing this crap. I'm glad you raised (think sizing could be bigger) and I really hope you don't fold the KK to a jam here.

I hope I don't sound like I'm giving you a hard time OP. Not at all my intention. Just a bit of constructive critique, not even criticism. You did the right thing in raising.

If you're not willing to gii with KK pre-flop you shouldn't be playing poker. Granted there are some situations that warrant it; this is not one of them.