1/2 Live game. Have been sitting at the table for 3 hours, and the table is extremely passive. The only three betting going on is from me, or a player with KK or AA, maybe AK. We are talking 4-5 3-bets since I sat down, even AA KK have been flatting pre flop raises.

V1 (500): Has the look of an OMC, but certainly not quite that tight. His pre flop raises must be respected, but are wider than JJ+ AK. Shown down with less than Top pair, but not too expensively, and always with outs to improve.

V2 (200): Nothing can go right for him. Limps AA from EP, and ends up as a limped pot. Goes broke. Preflop raises to 7 from SB with AA, goes 5 way, finds a fold on a board with 2 paired cards, and two all ins in front of him. (Preflop raise to 7 won't accomplish anything other than building the pot at this table)

Hero (600): I was getting a bit frisky with my pre flop openers, but not going crazy with bluff aggression. 50/50 on getting called with my 3-bets, C-bets have finished them all off. Haven't shown down too many hands, last one I can remember I opened from HJ with AK ($15), SB shoved for 80 and I called. Certainly showing the most aggression pre flop at this table.

Relative Position: V1 (UTG) V2 (UTG+1) H (UTG+2)
Hero: KK

Question: I'm up against AA's right?

OTTH:

V1 Opens to 10, V2 Calls, H Raises to 36
(I've been reading a lot of ELDIESEL, and loving his insight (Secretly hoping to get blasted by him on this one))
Given the table play, I didn't want to fold out all of these two player's range that I crush, but I did want to get rid of the rest of the field and go 3-way while IP.

Folded to V1 who calls, V2 raises to 80, H Calls, V1 folds (Sadly, I was really trying to keep him in the hand)

I'm not confused at what to do at this point, with V2 only have 120 left in a ~196 pot, I'm getting the rest in.

I was only in for 36 until V2 4 bet me. I get that 4-bets are serious business at 1/2, certainly at this table. Is calling a major leak? I don't see many players making the fold, but that doesn't make the call right. Yeah theres bunches of dead money to a small 4 bet, but a 4-bet here is still a 4-bet.

I don't know. Given the way you describe V2 it seems like his 4 could be frustration. You could have the image in his mind as a 3 betting manic because you've done it a handful of times. The way 1/2 plays V2 could have played for days on end at other tables and not seen a 3 bet.

If V1 played the hand this way - yuck. I hate it. Given his image and how deep he was. I think V2 is different tho. Like you said there is way too much in the pot after flatting to fold after he shoves post flop. Maybe u can find a fold if an ace hits the flop. Maybe?

Anyway, I'm calling all jams here and jamming myself if checked to me.

I'd fold. I mentioned this in another thread. If you watched 100,000 hours of 1/2 no limit, you would probably count on one hand the number of times someone 4-bet to an amount less than all-in without AA or KK. It just does not happen at these stakes with these player pools.

Maybe in some underground games, or places where guys are balls-y and have tons of history on each other, you can loosen ranges somewhat. But against unknowns, there is no reason to go broke here.

You have one pair, facing the rarest of aggressive pre-flop moves, and you are wildly unsure about your prospects. Just fold. No one will know htat you folded kings. No one will call you names. No one will do anything to hurt your pride. Just fold the damn kings.

Whatever slim +EV you can talk yourself into here isn't worth the variance ride.

Also, if we're wrong and this V just tilting because of his previous failures, then we'll have plenty of shots at his money. and if he's not tilting, and actually does have AA, then doubling him up and leveling out his tilt is HUGELY -EV

It's spots like these, whether or not I suck out, that really bother me. I don't mind being beaten, or even being sucked out against, it all comes around. I mind making decisions that are bad/staring me in the face. Bluffing into 5 people, because I'm bored (Thats a bad one) or calling a 4-bet with KKs. Part of my thinking, was that V1 would call, and I could profit off him if V2 has AA.
I've seen this play enough with AK to convince myself to make the call, but its more of a cop out than anything else.

I hear you... It may take just a few more times of this for me to get it in my head....

I snap it in. If hes that frustrated losing then he would 3bet his aa


honetslty i would be shoving qq and ak here as well

his range is mostyly jj qq ak aq aj tt i feel like

kk is a fist pump shoveeeeeee

You would have to have an incredible read to ever even consider making this laydown at this stack size. I'm done.

Thats the range you think he'll 4-bet?? Most 1/2 I've played don't even 3-bet AQ AJ TT.

But it's good to know I'm not the only one making this move.

+1

Does it change if he's got 300? 350? SPR would still be ~1

I think he can have QQ+ here if not JJ+. He would be playing it terribly if he has anything other than AA/KK, but I've had semi-competent players make weird spew plays like this. Especially if we're one of the only players raising pre, Vs love to get awkwardly tricky with pps > TT.

At our decision point it's 44 into 156 and it is very possible V1 will come along if we just smooth call. I'm calling here all day everyday. I think shoving is terrible because we'll absolutely fold out V1 and V2 might find a fold with the bottom end of his range.

This is such a bizarre move, I'm trying to figure out if V2 wants you to fold or not. Part of me thinks this is a spin on the limp/raise mentality, and to be clear, I see this a lot more with hands like 88 than AA. They limp along with the idea of seeing what the flop will bring, and then the pot gets big, they get excited and decide to steal. Is V2 positionally aware? If so, it's definitely a fold. If not, maybe he thinks you are getting frisky here. And he is kind of tilty.

I'll be danged if I know what to do here, but I smell a rat.

Yeah, I agree with Dave, since this is such a good squeeze play, if I knew V was at all capable of squeezing here, I GII.

Lol, I was thinking "why 3-bet?" right as I read this.

I don't mind the 3b here so much, in really MW pots it's more reason to flat. HU there's definitely merit to 3b. MW, big pp's are the most valuable speculative hands, with low SCs you'll never be fearless of a better flush it's like you need just the nut straight to be comfortable. Not only is it easier for big pp's to improve (sets happen more often than straights/flushes) but when you get there, you're on the good end of RIO. Set of 2s in a set over set need to be bad, AA in set over set need to be good. I'd be more likely to 3b low pp's so you can win without your cards, c-bet will take it down. And with big pp's stack people when you hit top set.

It's not just a 4b though, it's a back-4b, the flat came first. That scares me because I back-4b once and back-5b once, both times with AA. If he flatted and then shoved when it got back to him, a lot of times that's a frustrated AK. ~6.5:1 isn't too bad of mining odds, you know he's open shoving every flop. If there's a benefit to sitting with $800+, I'd mine, maybe there's a bad player $800 deep that you'll cover if you hit the King, or maybe they'll give your c-bets even more respect when they look over at a $800 stack. There's not quite enough in this pot alone to mine, but if there's enough future EV to sitting with $800 I'd see the flop. You can't give him more IO than that though, fold on Q-high or lower boards.