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Old 07-18-2018, 02:44 PM   #1
SUYAPA
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1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

New table. No infos.

Villain just came from another 1/2 table with about 1k.
Hero 250€

Hero raises in mp to 10 with KK, HJ and bb call.

Flop (31) 774
Villain in bb donks 11, hero calls, hj folds.

Turn (53) 7748
Villain checks, hero?

Whasn't sure if i should raise flop.
Is turn a check back?
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Old 07-18-2018, 02:56 PM   #2
recondite7
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Raise flop. You have position and are way ahead of his range here.

As played I probably bet the turn and fold to a check raise. Checking behind isn't the worst thing in the world, but you need to call a lot of donk river bets here.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:03 PM   #3
shady24
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUYAPA View Post
New table. No infos.

Villain just came from another 1/2 table with about 1k.
Hero 250€

Hero raises in mp to 10 with K1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flopK1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:, HJ and bb call.

Flop (31) 71/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop71/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:41/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:
Villain in bb donks 11, hero calls, hj folds.

Turn (53) 71/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop71/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:41/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:81/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop:
Villain checks, hero?

Whasn't sure if i should raise flop.
Is turn a check back?
I'm raising flop. He could have 56, a flush draw, an over pair to the board, hoping you're on AK and missed this flop. If you raise, and he jams, easy fold. He prob bets his flush and straights on turn, so I'd bet again, expecting TT JJ to call again, especially with a diamond in their hand.

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Old 07-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #4
riverfish1
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

raise flop get it in on the flop.

raise-folding flop is bad. If you include 56 and flush draws in someone's range - they can easily jam those on the flop given that there aren't a huge amount of 7s in Hero's range and a lot more overpairs that could fold.

Turn is a bet/fold. Bet since Vill could have picked up a flush draw, be stubborn with a 4 or 55/66, or been FPSing and hit an 8 on the turn. I fold to a raise here since you can have flushes in your range (given that you're IP - calling with overs + fd is fine on the flop) and Vill rarely has an overpair that wants to c/raise turn (mostly 3-betting pre, and if not they have to have the overpaid with a diamond).

I'm also value betting most rivers if Vill just calls turn.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:22 PM   #5
NittyOldMan1
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

meh i dislike raising flop. just call and keep making him think you have AK.

turn looks like a small bet, maybe 1/2 pot and fold to a CR. if called check back river UI.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:50 PM   #6
WereBeer
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

I call flop, AP bet/fold turn like $35 or something.

Will x rivers with a diamond, A, 5, 6 and usually fold to any bet > 1/2 pot, will b/f other rivers about 1/2 pot except Kx which I will bet/GII for like 2/3 pot.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:54 PM   #7
au4all
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by recondite7 View Post
Raise flop. You have position and are way ahead of his range here.
Neither of those are good reasons to bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shady24 View Post
I'm raising flop. He could have 56, a flush draw, an over pair to the board, hoping you're on AK and missed this flop. If you raise, and he jams, easy fold. He prob bets his flush and straights on turn, so I'd bet again, expecting TT JJ to call again, especially with a diamond in their hand.
It's okay for your opponents to be misled about your hand. You're under no obligation to tell them what your hand is.

The most interesting thing about https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...low-stakes-nl/ is learning about the thought pattern(s) of the people you play against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1 View Post
raise flop get it in on the flop.

raise-folding flop is bad. If you include 56 and flush draws in someone's range - they can easily jam those on the flop given that there aren't a huge amount of 7s in Hero's range and a lot more overpairs that could fold.
Indeed it is, that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
meh i dislike raising flop. just call and keep making him think you have AK.

turn looks like a small bet, maybe 1/2 pot and fold to a CR. if called check back river UI.
Agree 100%.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:11 PM   #8
shorn7
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Great flop for you. definitely raise for value as you will get called by a ton of worse hands while also making any draw pay to see turn. Outside of flopping a set, these types of flops are the best kind for an OP.

I also bet the turn as well. IF check-raised, then we can safely fold. We have hand that now has very little chance to improve (1 clean out), but we could still be ahead. Bet/folding turn instead of checking will also lower V's river bluffing frequency and allow us to set our price to get to showdown.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:22 PM   #9
BIoodRose
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

I would raise flop and gii given we aren't so deep.

AP, I would check turn. I just want to check with all the people that is saying to bet this turn, what worse are we getting to call, what better are we getting to fold?

We almost never get better to fold, given the play, a good portion of 7x combos have boated up, flushes obviously ain't folding.

Are be betting to deny equity from 3 combos of Ad8 specifically? A bet here seems extremely thin
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:45 PM   #10
whatnow88
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

I would just call in game but I can understand a raise. you can get value from 88, 99, 1010, JJ, 56 and flush draws.

as played OTT 56 and flush draws got their. If we get raised we can just fold but if we bet we still get value from 8s 9s 10s js(24 combos). I think this is to thin because he just has a weak 7 or a flush so much of the time(32 combos). for that reason I would just check the turn and call reasonable bets on the river.
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Old 07-19-2018, 06:01 AM   #11
ZuneIt
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by recondite
Raise flop. You have position and are way ahead of his range here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all View Post
Neither of those are good reasons to bet.
This response is why wading thru posts on poker forum is often a waste of time. Since au4all isn't the resident prophet, saying they are not good reasons to bet does not make it so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shady24
I'm raising flop. He could have 56, a flush draw, an over pair to the board, hoping you're on AK and missed this flop. If you raise, and he jams, easy fold. He prob bets his flush and straights on turn, so I'd bet again, expecting TT JJ to call again, especially with a diamond in their hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
It's okay for your opponents to be misled about your hand. You're under no obligation to tell them what your hand is.
Your action, whether it is a check or bet, is always telling a V something. That is, if he's been paying attention to when you bet/check throughout the session, it's just harder for V to uncover your play because he has to be paying more attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
The most interesting thing about https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...low-stakes-nl/ is learning about the thought pattern(s) of the people you play against.
Which I guess is why you didn't reveal your thoughts as to why you hold the position[s] that you do in the matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1
raise flop get it in on the flop.

raise-folding flop is bad. If you include 56 and flush draws in someone's range - they can easily jam those on the flop given that there aren't a huge amount of 7s in Hero's range and a lot more overpairs that could fold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
Indeed it is. that makes perfect sense.
Now au4all agrees that raising flop is good, if we intend to GII with V.

OTF, V is donking $11 into 2 Vs, OOP, with a raked pot of $26 where I play, because they've taken $2 for the BBJ.

There are players who will bet their trips here out of the BB because often times they will not be believed. <1/2 pot is a nice sized bet. Depending on the type of player he is, BB could have paid $8 pre with A7s, K7s, 97s, 87s, 76s, 75s.

It's also a nice size bet for a flush draw if BB can tame his V's into just calling his blocking donk-bet.

As for BB shipping it if you raise, the only hand he could have to make that profitable is 65.

86 only gives him 41% equity. If you raise his $11 flop bet to $45 & HJ folds, there will $80 in the pot after the rake & Hero has 245 behind. So V would be shipping 279 into a pot of 31 + 11 + 45 + 34 to call + 245 to GII + your 245 = 611 - 7 rake = 604.

V's 279 [31 to match your flop raise + 245 to put you AI] is 45.66% of the pot & he has 40.5% equity with something like 86 so he is going to need 5.2% FE to break even. There is only 1 combo [65] that gives V 48.8% equity.

Now I see this kind of shipment made quite often by agro-tards, so against those people I am never folding. I never have to fear calling off vs his whole range when he doesn't have a 7. The problem is: he'll have a 7 in his shipment range sometimes.....but will he GII with A7s/K7s? Why does he need to fear you being on a flush draw? It's possible, but is it your most likely holding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1
meh i dislike raising flop. just call and keep making him think you have AK.

turn looks like a small bet, maybe 1/2 pot and fold to a CR. if called check back river UI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
Agree 100%.
So.....au4all agrees with riverfish1, however, he agrees with NittyOldMan 100%, so..........I guess riverfish got a 9x% agreement?

Am I missing something, or has au4all contributed nothing [other than an opinion, & even Trump has one of those] to this thread?
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:05 AM   #12
6bet me
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Flop is actually really close between 3 decisions:
Raise/fold
Raise/gii
Call

I probably lean towards a raise/fold though. I'd be more comfortable raise/gii if our stack size was $200 or less. And I'd be more on board with flatting in position if the size of the donk bet was 50% pot or more.

As played though, turn is an easy bet/fold.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:26 AM   #13
Lapidator
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Basically every single one of the draws that might have been betting otf has now gotten there ott...

And you guys want to bet?

How about check back the turn, and check back or fold the river.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:06 AM   #14
SUYAPA
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

First i wanted to raise thinking that his small sizing is indicative of a 4 (maybe 55, 66) or a FD and that he is either betting small with a 4 or small pockets for info or blockbetting with a FD to see a cheap turn. I called because i didnt want to make a weaker pair fold.
I thought he would bet bigger with a 7 or try to x/r otf.
Ott i thought about checking but decided to bet 30 because of not having a diamond but wasn´t if betting is good.
Anyways he x/r to 90, i snapfolded and he showed QT and was really surprised that i didnt have a flush LOL
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:06 PM   #15
whatnow88
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

unless we have solid reads on V we should probably stay away from making assumptions about his sizing. V might not even know what sizing is.

OTT we do not bet because we don't have a diamond.

We bet for 2 reasons

1. to get better hands to fold
2. to get worse hands to call

you can bet to get value from smaller pocket pairs but the 8 is literally the worst card in the deck to come on the turn. again think of the hands you mentioned before that he could have when he donks. does the 8 help that range of hands?
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:38 PM   #16
shorn7
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUYAPA View Post
First i wanted to raise thinking that his small sizing is indicative of a 4 (maybe 55, 66) or a FD and that he is either betting small with a 4 or small pockets for info or blockbetting with a FD to see a cheap turn. I called because i didnt want to make a weaker pair fold.
I thought he would bet bigger with a 7 or try to x/r otf.
Ott i thought about checking but decided to bet 30 because of not having a diamond but wasn´t if betting is good.
Anyways he x/r to 90, i snapfolded and he showed QT and was really surprised that i didnt have a flush LOL
WP
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:48 PM   #17
haha_TP
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Flop is actually really close between 3 decisions:
Raise/fold
Raise/gii
Call

I probably lean towards a raise/fold though. I'd be more comfortable raise/gii if our stack size was $200 or less. And I'd be more on board with flatting in position if the size of the donk bet was 50% pot or more.

As played though, turn is an easy bet/fold.
I wouldn't want to raise/fold or raise/get it in because we are readless and we don't know what the correct option is. I don't know why we are itching to build a bigger pot with just one pair on a paired board anyways. People are acting like he can't have a 7, when he can have a lot of them.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:07 PM   #18
jdr0317
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Re: 1/2 KK facing donkbet on paired flop

Raising flop is bad. You're basically treating your opponent like a sackless moron to raise the flop and think he never rams our face with like A5. Plus if he ever has something dumb like 86, it's nice of us to tell him "hey, be careful, I have a good hand".

Turn is a clear check. That's an awful card. Are we happy if we get two streets of value here? A bet on this street is a draw charger, basically. We can check and still get river value from 66, gutters that turned top pair, etc. Plus we could easily be getting baited into bluffing or overly thin value betting on this card.
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