eff. stacks 450ish

hero (MP) early 30s white guy but looks early 20s, LAG

villain (BB) is 60 something year old white guy, loose passive. game has been going around two and a half hours and i don't think i've seen him show any aggression yet preflop. he limps a ton and i even saw him not 3b KK early in the session. won a few pots off him either bluffing his habitual donk bets vs me or making thin value raises vs said donk bets. i guess worth noting his donk bets are usually tiny and less than 1/2 pot. none of these were in 3b+ pots tho, and i feel like he might size his bets based on his hand strength by pure $ amount and not in relation to pot size, but idk.

hero is dealt black KK and opens to $8
two callers IP, villain 3b to $16
hero 4b (?) to $50
folds to villain who thinks a bit, sloppily grabs 5b chips, but elects to flat after some thought

flop ($117): Qs Jh 7s
villain donks $50, hero flats relatively quickly (?)

turn ($217): 3h
villain leads $50, hero flats again not taking too long

river ($317): Th
villain leads $75, hero tanks trying to get a physical tell, i ask him if he has AA (what i put a large % of his range on PF after he grabbed the 5b chips.) he isn't giving away anything tell wise, just staring at the flop not flinching at all to my stare/table talk. i block a lot of AK obv but what do i really beat here, not sure if he's playing back at me with the initial 3b or wtf is going on in this hand at all tbh.

advice on all streets appreciated, this hand has been bugging me more than it usually would

I'm not sure this hand could have been played any worst. Call the 3b to set mine or take the pot away on terrible runouts for AA but good lord NEVER 4bet Father Time. And then post flop is even worst, what were you beating in your mind when you were calling?

So your V has not 3bet once all session and has even flatted KK pre once already. All of a sudden, he's now 3betting and contemplating 5betting.

<Loud-ass alarm bells should be going off>

Next time just flat the 3bet from OMC and try to spike a king. He's got a monster holding.

What an awful flop for your hand. I think you were likely behind anyway, but with the chance he had QQ or JJ, you're dead to those hands now too.

Ask yourself what hands OMC would 3bet pre, contemplate a 5bet, and then lead the flop with that you now beat. The answer is nothing. I suppose it's remotely possible he has the other two kings for a split, but most likely not. Do you think he'd take this line with 1010, AQ, or AK? No.

I feel if you would have thought this hand through, you could have saved a lot of money. You have to make the disciplined lay down. OMC is never, ever getting out of line here. He's never creative enough to play back at you like this. You have to be able to ditch big hands post-flop or it'll take chunks out of your WR.

V hasn't 3bet in 2.5hrs at 30-60 hands an hour that is 75-150 hands. Of those V will have had the opportunity to 3bet when someone opens in front of him. He was UTG for 1/9 of those and therefore unable to 3bet call it 8-16 hands UTG. UTG+1, MP1, MP2 & HJ maybe someone opens in front of him half the time on average, that's 16-32 3bet opportunities. Then CO, BTN, SB & BB someone opens 80% of the time infront of him on average, that's 25-50 3bet opportunities.

In total I guess V has had between 40 and 80 opportunities to 3bet. He has done so once and shown KK after not 3betting. I put his 3bet% between 0.5% and 3%. That's AA to [JJ+ AK].

Tightest end of estimate he has AA and you're crushed pre and on flop. Loosest estimate he has 3 combos QQ, 3 JJ, 6 AA, 1 KK, and 8 AK on the flop. That's 12 value combos vs 8 bluff combos and 1 split.

Fact he almost 5bet makes me think he has QQ+ in which case you are facing 9 combos of AA+ and splitting vs 1 combo of KK.

i feel like i worded OP poorly. villain was not your typical OMC. he was very very loose preflop, playing around 60% of his hands. also, his donk bet % vs me when i was PFR was near 100%.

when he min-3b my open, I felt compelled at the time to 4b because I didn't want to go 4-ways to the flop with KK only with position against villain, and there was a decent % (in my head at least) he was playing back at me. if he did in fact 5b, i was almost definitely gonna fold. not sure if this line of thinking is bad, but what i was honestly thinking at the time. also as i mentioned in OP we tangled a bit before, and he definitely views me as loose PF, but not sure if he is ever adjusting by opening his 3b range or he just still always has it here. set-mining with KK feels wrong to me, esp vs such a weak-sized 3b.

flop and turn i also feel committed just to call because of his ridic donk bet % and lol pot odds.

anyway i tank-folded river, he didn't show. i told him when i left i folded KK and asked him if he had AA, he told me very good laydown and he did have AA, but the hand still left me extremely confused.

If this guy is as tight as you say, the flop should be a fold. What do you beat?
AA QQ JJ all beat you and you tie with KK

You didn't feel like calling off vs a 5bet because you were 225bb deep. That's good - if you gii that deep vs someone 3betting <= 3% it is going to vs KK+ so your KK is crushed.

It felt silly to set mine with KK but that in itself is silly. Despite V being loose preflop he is clearly not loose with his 3bets but he does make them very small. What is wrong with just calling and trying to cooler him? Maybe you cooler him and another player at the same time. I've won some ridiculously massive pots after gii 3 or 4way on the flop with huge equity and my hand holding up.

Try this: Don't think "ooooh a big pair, must raise" just think of it as any other hand. Assess the situation accurately and make the best play for the situation.

Yes there will be many loose players who are loose with there 3bets and you'll go ahead and 4bet KK for value (I.e. Call a 5bet shove pr shove over a 5bet). There will be others who 3bet wide but 5bet tight. If they call a lot of 4bets you will 4bet them and expect to be ahead of their call 4bet range with KK but you'd fold to their 5bet because I is KK+

Others will 3bet wide and either 5bet or fold vs a 4bet. If their 5bet is narrow you wont 4bet KK or other strong hands, you'll use weak hands with blockers, like AJo or A5s or K9s to make bluff 4bets with. You'll flat their wide 3bet with some really strong hands that crush their 3bet range. For value 4bets you'll use maybe as tight as AA, maybe wider, but it all depends on their 5bet range.

Big pocket pairs aren't magic hands, there is no law says you have to raise them or pot commit yourself as often as possible.

Pre: yup. Good


Flop: honestly man you can just fold. It feels silly but you beat NOtHING unless he's having his once a year spazz. He's a non aggressive player who just 3 bet and now donked into a 4 bettor. He has AA at least.

Turn: see above only more so.

River: now you truly beat nothing.

Sounds like a pretty clear flat pre to his 3-bet. I saw your update that he's very loose pre-flop - yeah, I get that from the above, as well. It's really about aggression. I wouldn't 4-bet this guy with KK. Sounds like V is playing something like 60/0?