Why?

You don't think we're going to get better spots in this session to get our money in?

If we actually had a strong hand or strong draw here I wouldn't think twice about shipping it. We have a pair of Jacks in a 5 way pot on a drawy board. This is what we've been waiting for?

You're probably right. But in my usual game, there's almost always someone playing any-two-suited, and consequently, it is amazing how many times a rag two pair shows up and takes down a big pot. In this case, someone really could be holding J8 or 84. Not likely, but possible.

T9 is another likely holding. IMO, the only thing that folds out T9 here is a shove, and I'm not comfortable shoving with a one-pair hand. That's JMO though.

Please stop arguing handstrengths relative to the board, we all know we almost always have the best hand here, but this isn't an excuse to shove because "lots of turn cards are bad"

look at my previous post.

does it matter to you that I play nl200 online and live and understand how the games play in both settings?

But it's not about attempting to win the most amount of hands, it's about winning the most amount of money over many hands. We don't have to fight every hand to the death simply because we have TP, do we? My guess is that we don't have a huge advantage in this hand (I could be wrong); I'm waiting for better spots when we do have a big advantage.

Obviously calling sucks too. We give everybody and their grandmother a chance to draw out on us. I just think calling is less suckier than shipping.

G93%chanceIdon'tknowwhatI'mtalkingaboutG

This is not a tournament. We maximize every edge as slim as it may be.

word up, any other way sucks shove I dont want a raise to 34 or even 65 stick it all in

It's live play, where we get 30 hands an hour, and play sessions that generally max out at 8-9 hours, but more often max out in between 4-6. There is no guarantee we have a "better spot" forthcoming. In addition, the concept of "better spot" is an overused one anyway. If something is +EV by a measurable margin, it's good for us. The "better spot" will still exist later on.

We don't "just have a pair of Jacks". We have TPGK with a backdoor flush draw in a spot where worse hands will call, there is dead money in the pot, and it's a lock no one has an overpair.

I fail to understand the point you're making. We all know we have the best hand here, but that makes shoving bad? This doesn't make any sense.

This is fantastic, but it has nothing to do with the question I asked.

It's ok, I'll do a little hand holding for you,


if villain always call/calls flop and c/calls turn with j9o on this texture, but doesn't always call shoves on the flop with the same hand, now do you see why shoving sucks?

At first I thought calling would be better but now I think raising the flop and shoving non-diamond turns is the best play. There's so much dead money in the middle and our hand is very strong given villains preflop and flop lines that we almost always have the best hand, we need to protect our hand and allow us a chance to take it down on the flop instead of calling and playing a guessing game on the turn against 5 people. Shoving is bad because it doesnt allow flush draws to come along for the ride and weaker jacks will fold. Raising and shoving most turns is the best line

Its live 1/2 chances are a flush draw will come along if you ship, so if shipping is the worst option lol, clearly calling is the worst play what is your raise size if you don't ship

yeah I don't think shipping is the worst option at all. probably raise>shove>call.

The pot is 36+48 when action gets to us on the flop so $84. I'd pop it up to $65 or so. I definitely think some % of the time certain villains will call with a FD regardless of what you make it on the flop but raising allows nitty players to come along and then we get there money if they miss on the turn. We can even fold flush draw completing turns against nitty opponents but whoever said KJ pretty much = QQ in this spot is correct, barring the unlikely AJ.

what boggles my mind is people think that you can raise here without shoving.

I appreciate the hand holding, which seemingly is misplaced considering everyone would agree I'm one of the better posters in this forum. We're not shoving here because there are a couple of garbage Jacks that you're convinced would fold the flop but easily decide to play a big pot on the turn? Do you realize how many turn cards there are that will either look awful for us? So sure you'll proceed there aggressively to valuetown Jc7c, are you?

Most turns? How many good turns are there in your opinion? Weaker Jacks will fold but flush draws will call huge raises?

+1000

They don't understand that raising is the same thing as shoving, without having the benefit of removing difficult decision making. Sure, you could conceivably raise to $75 to take it down now, or to try and ship the turn, but no matter what, you'd be getting it all in quickly thereafter (either calling a 3-bet shove, which you'd hate, or getting it in on the turn, which you'd hate on any diamond/A/Q/T). Shoving removes the headache.

simple shove. Many FD and most TP will call all day long. If you raise much smaller, get 2 or 3 calls, and about any turn card falls, there will be another post here.

You're not "winning" $260 here.
You have $190 and the pot has $84 minus rake.
This is a pretty basic concept here... that you misunderstand ?
or made a mistake here?

WHAT?

I happen to agree with him, but I also think he might come to regret posting that. Heh.

Let's all just remember to discuss the hand in question and not how good at poker we are.

"everyone would agree" is a bit strong, how about some or many or I think I am, but "everyone would agree"?

What can I say, I have an ego. I give consistent advice and like to think I add to the conversations. You're certainly entitled to disagree and think I suck if you wish. I'd rather not detract from what is a pretty solid thread by arguing about how good a poster I or anyone else is, so let's get back on track.

redundant.

Let me be clear.

WE'RE NOT SHOVING BECAUSE HE ISN'T ALWAYS CALLING IT OFF WITH J9o WHEN WE SHOVE, BUT HE WILL CALL/CALL WITH ALL OF THOSE HANDS WHEN WE JUST RAISE.

If you still don't understand this concept and why just raising is infinitely better than jamming, sorry, you just don't get it. Do you understand that you're passing up a billion dollars in EV when you just jam and fish only calls with hands like a2dd, 56dd, AJ etc etc? (hint: WHEN HE CALLS YOU'RE NEVER CRUSHING HIM, even vs **** FLUSHDRAWS. hint #2: he DOESNT ALWAYS CALL WITH WORSE QJ, BUT ALWAYS WITH A2dd, 56dd, AJ. hint#3: WHEN YOU WEIGHT HIS ****ING CALLING RANGE YOU'RE NEVER CRUSHING)

Only like 40% of the deck is bad. Stop being silly. V1 and V2's ranges here ARE SO WEAK. Why shove and remove any abilty to extract value? They have so many bad hands that aren't folding yet. If you think his range is exclusively Jx, FDs and t9 you don't understand ranges. PERIOD.

what boggles my mind is that you immediately think that in order to get stacks in comfortably without weird sizing is that you can only ship flop.

What can i say, i'm right and you're just straight up wrong. How does that feel?

yeah because everyone has to call you with everything they called the bb's lead with so when that happens the pot will be ripe and you have position for the next street and people in live poker will rarely if ever back jam on you so you will have a huge pot with about the same amount in your stack as in the pot which means you are +ev regardless of action on the turn -- you have already made money on the hand


question for all those shoving: why do you not want to be called when you have the best hand and the button if you are good in poker and can make the correct turn decision you can look at this spot as a fistpump rather than a headache

you have to see everything in poker as making money on every play, when you raise this and get called by worse you have made money, period end of sentence....if it just so happens that a chaser with middle pair sucks out on the turn with five outer that does not mean you didn't make money on the flop play

the problem most people have with this line is that we don't know what cards they have so if a diamond hits we don't want to put it in drawing dead then we lose money on the turn -- but the turn play has zero to do with the flop play try and see them as completely different hands and if you can make the right read on the turn after value bumping the flop then you are a pro because none of your plays are -ev

so shoving here to block a -ev play on the turn is -ev because a shove is only called by better, therefore it is -ev

make a +ev play on the flop, then another +ev play on the turn, ez game