Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-01-2020, 11:33 AM   #1
SpinzFTW
journeyman
 
SpinzFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 329
1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Main villain is an unknown to me and I have her outchipped - sits with roughly $280.

Otth:

Utg ($51), mp1 and mp2 limps
Hero otb raises to $20
Sb (main villain) flats $20
Utg ships, mp1 and mp2 folds

$31 to call

Hero ???

Flat in this spot or a good 4bet spot? Imo sbs range is as followed.

AJo+, AJss+, KQss, 9s+
SpinzFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 11:50 AM   #2
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Why would you try and iso an all in with J high? Call.
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 04:48 PM   #3
J-45
newbie
 
J-45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 25
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

$20 seems a little higher than I would usually be raising in this spot pre, but I donít mind it.

Iím definitely calling vs. trying to isolate with Jack high.
J-45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 05:00 PM   #4
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-45 View Post
$20 seems a little higher than I would usually be raising in this spot pre, but I donít mind it.

Iím definitely calling vs. trying to isolate with Jack high.
Pre sizing is fine/standard. I didn't really look at the pre action too close, but I actually like overlimping better with a short stack that might be shove happy, and I especially like overlimping if the limpers do a lot of limp-calling.
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 06:09 PM   #5
twitcherroo
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,913
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

100% calling now that you're here.
twitcherroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 01:13 AM   #6
OmahaDonk
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,186
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

No one likes to iso vs a capped range to clean up equity? Getting AJ to fold is a huge win.

Not raising the first time with shorties around, you're making it easy for them both pre and on flop
OmahaDonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 05:01 AM   #7
flopshove
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 42
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

With the short stack limping UTG, I usually overlimp any hand I donít want to jam if they decide to l/r. I would include JTs in my limp range here. I would raise/gii with 88+, AJ+, maybe some AT. Comments on that range are welcome.

I call AP
flopshove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 10:33 AM   #8
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk View Post
No one likes to iso vs a capped range to clean up equity? Getting AJ to fold is a huge win.

Not raising the first time with shorties around, you're making it easy for them both pre and on flop
Why would we want to get HU vs a range that we're a heavy dog against?
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 11:15 AM   #9
mikko
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,863
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Easy answer is equity. Getting HU for $31 in $120 pot is good outcome. Even for Jack high in this scenerio.
mikko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 01:57 PM   #10
SpinzFTW
journeyman
 
SpinzFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 329
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Easy answer is equity. Getting HU for $31 in $120 pot is good outcome. Even for Jack high in this scenerio.
^This.

By 4betting we are forcing sb to fold out their equity which we are very likely behind given their likely range.

Additionally, to simply flat, pot will be $150 post which leaves for a low spr, and little playability unless we connect with the flop in a big way. So 4betting, getting sb to fold and basically flip with utg for $31 seemed optimal in this spot.

Probably should of added that utg was limp calling, and then check folding nearly every hand so wasn't too concerned of a limp rejam.
SpinzFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 03:06 PM   #11
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinzFTW View Post
^This.

By 4betting we are forcing sb to fold out their equity which we are very likely behind given their likely range.

Additionally, to simply flat, pot will be $150 post which leaves for a low spr, and little playability unless we connect with the flop in a big way. So 4betting, getting sb to fold and basically flip with utg for $31 seemed optimal in this spot.

Probably should of added that utg was limp calling, and then check folding nearly every hand so wasn't too concerned of a limp rejam.
Why did you post this if you already had a correct answer
in mind to your question?

There's no way you're flipping vs UTG's range.
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 04:42 PM   #12
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
Pre sizing is fine/standard. I didn't really look at the pre action too close, but I actually like overlimping better with a short stack that might be shove happy, and I especially like overlimping if the limpers do a lot of limp-calling.
Limpers who do a lot of limp-calling are the sort of suckers you want to be isolating with raises, so that you can push them off the pot when they miss the flop 70% of the time with their too-wide range.

If we are going to put on the brakes every time a short stack enters the pot, then we might as well pick up and go home, because at this level half the table is typically playing short.

Why bother with a limping range at all? If we limp and the big blind checks, half the pot is going to disappear down the slot and we've got five players fighting over the scraps.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 04:47 PM   #13
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Limpers who do a lot of limp-calling are the sort of suckers you want to be isolating with raises, so that you can push them off the pot when they miss the flop 70% of the time with their too-wide range.

If we are going to put on the brakes every time a short stack enters the pot, then we might as well pick up and go home, because at this level half the table is typically playing short.

Why bother with a limping range at all? If we limp and the big blind checks, half the pot is going to disappear down the slot and we've got five players fighting over the scraps.
I just don't wanna get stuck in a 4 way pot is all, because we're not gonna be able to just c bet and take it down enough. The benefit to limping is that we only risk 1 BB, get to play the hand IP, and are up against villains that likely call way too often, and will pay us off when we hit 2p+. Whereas, we raise and risk 10 BB, and then do a lot of folding to leads, or x'ing flop as it xs around and then folding to a turn barrel.
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 06:47 PM   #14
OmahaDonk
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,186
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
Why would we want to get HU vs a range that we're a heavy dog against?
There are plenty of times where we are slight dogs to the limp raise and dominated by the SB. Some examples are LR has 99, SB has AJ, or LR has AK and SB has QJ etc.

I would prefer she folds rather than put in 31 more and steal our equity
OmahaDonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 10:29 PM   #15
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
I just don't wanna get stuck in a 4 way pot is all, because we're not gonna be able to just c bet and take it down enough. The benefit to limping is that we only risk 1 BB, get to play the hand IP, and are up against villains that likely call way too often, and will pay us off when we hit 2p+. Whereas, we raise and risk 10 BB, and then do a lot of folding to leads, or x'ing flop as it xs around and then folding to a turn barrel.
If we limp, we will stuck in at least a 5-way pot. Where is the benefit, again?

If 10bb doesn't do the job getting the action heads-up, we should be iso'ing even larger. My default rule of thumb in LOLowstakes NL is 6bb + 2bb for each limper, in the OP's case raising to $24.

If that doesn't do the job, on average, size up even more.

The whole point of the exercise is to take advantage of the people who make the horrible mistake of limping, not to make the same horrible mistake ourselves.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 02:34 AM   #16
Crobinso89
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 74
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

You want to mix in a bit of calling and 4betting. This is definitely a decent candidate to be 4betting. It will have decent equity against a wide range of hands and plays well post flop. We don’t want to be transparent and only be 4betting the top of our range. Also I have found that small stacks like this just get frustrated and will shove light trying to double up and rebuy or go home. You might find sometimes your ahead.

But I could go both ways for calling or 4betting. Just have to have a mix and merge your range in this spot.. Depending on your history or knowledge of the opponent but I would likely lean towards a 4betting. If you want to feel a little better perhaps make it a little on the smaller size giving yourself good equity over time on this play.
Crobinso89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 10:27 AM   #17
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
If we limp, we will stuck in at least a 5-way pot. Where is the benefit, again?

If 10bb doesn't do the job getting the action heads-up, we should be iso'ing even larger. My default rule of thumb in LOLowstakes NL is 6bb + 2bb for each limper, in the OP's case raising to $24.

If that doesn't do the job, on average, size up even more.

The whole point of the exercise is to take advantage of the people who make the horrible mistake of limping, not to make the same horrible mistake ourselves.
So are you even raising in great set mining spots? Say five limp to you OTB with 66, you're raising to take advantage of limping ranges?

I've never tried out a strategy that doesn't even use overlimping. I feel like at a super loose passive and sticky table that it will just lead to a lot of bloated pots mw.

Also, if you have to go huge to iso, don't you narrow ranges so much, that we can no longer print by simply just c betting the flop?
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 06:21 PM   #18
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

If a short-stacking bozo has limped in ahead of us (see the OP) then our set-mining odds are depleted.

The primary way to make money in this game is to play a strong range in position against one or at most two other players who we have compelled to see a flop with too wide a range to profitably continue to our c-bet. This cannot happen if we limp.

Moreover, in California (where I play) contributing to a pot that gets to a flop without a raise is a small disaster, because of the fixed rake structure.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 06:27 PM   #19
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
If a short-stacking bozo has limped in ahead of us (see the OP) then our set-mining odds are depleted.

The primary way to make money in this game is to play a strong range in position against one or at most two other players who we have compelled to see a flop with too wide a range to profitably continue to our c-bet. This cannot happen if we limp.

Moreover, in California (where I play) contributing to a pot that gets to a flop without a raise is a small disaster, because of the fixed rake structure.
So are you saying that there's literally no times that you'll overlimp?
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 08:35 AM   #20
SpinzFTW
journeyman
 
SpinzFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 329
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

My overlimp range only consists of small pps (2s-7s). Of course there are situations that may dictate I limp more, but very rare - I usually just adjust by moving up in my raising range and cancel out the weaker hands.

Moreover, if someone raise pre I 3bet my entire continue range (again, I adjust sometimes due to player type).

Results: I 4bet to $200, SB called. Board ran out in my favour though and I riverred two pair and I got the last $100 on the riv. She had aces, utg had Q8cc.

Purpose for thread: another reg at my table saw my play and was roasting me - when I explained the logic and theory, he asked me to post the hand here.
SpinzFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 03:17 PM   #21
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
So are you saying that there's literally no times that you'll overlimp?
In a California game where half the pot leaves the table if we see a flop in an unraised pot, yes.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 09:16 PM   #22
sixsevenoff
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,297
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
In a California game where half the pot leaves the table if we see a flop in an unraised pot, yes.
What about a 10% up to $6 rake?
sixsevenoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2020, 07:04 PM   #23
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

$6 flat rake.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 02:32 AM   #24
WereBeer
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,592
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

Jesus, you dissect this kind of thinking at the table? Fk that, I’m not telling the mouth breathers how to play. Someone roasts me here, I’m going to look embarrassed and agree with them, not start explaining how equity works.
WereBeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2020, 06:30 PM   #25
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: twitch.tv/pokershaman59
Posts: 10,751
Re: 1/2 JTss pre otb with a short stack all-in

If we are playing good poker, i.e. raising and three-betting a lot, the jackpot hunters and set miners are going to hate us and complain about it whether we explain ourselves or not. We aren't there to be liked and accepted; we are there to take their money.

Don't talk strategy at the table. Just don't. Ever.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive