i appreciate all feedback - just want to learn how to play a big stack better. thanks in advance.

Wednesday afternoon game at local casino, average players, loose-passive, with a few solid, a few weak. Hero believes he has a solid aggressive image, made most money in a previous hand from V2 holding QhJh against V2's KsKc on board QJ34, all in, busting V2 about 3 hours prior. V2 bought back in for max $200 and played solidly in a few pots, showing AA and KK to get back up to $500. Then this hand:

fold to Hero in lojack, JsJc (~$650) bets $8, mid 30's

V1 directly left in hijack, calls $8 - straightforward-passive/average, late 50's probably retired, (~$160)

fold to V2 in BB, re-raise to $30 - solid player, about 30 y/o, articulate (~$500)
hero, calls
V1, calls
preflop pot: $90

flop: Ts7h3d
V2 bets out $90
Hero calls
V1 reraise all in to $130
V2 call
hero call
post-flop pot: $470

turn: 2h
V2: bets out $75
Hero: slow calls
post-turn pot: $630

river: 5h
V2: all in for about $250
Hero:?

Thanks!

You should only call if you enjoy the feeling of seeing a better hand and losing your stack

Kind of feels like we should be folding before the river too, but it's hard to say which street is best to fold on

Not an easy hand to play well, and a very good one to post.

Facing a bet of this size, you need to be able to identify that you can consider folding JJ on the flop. You can add in some exploitative stuff if you need to, player reads, perceived range ftb, guy smashing at a 2way pot vs a solid player and a short stacked player behind (generally forcing V2 to have a more value heavy range), etc. Mostly though, what I would do, is nit it up real hard, fold JJ and continue with all the sets (you should have all of them), and the KK+ I leave in preflop half the time or so, maybe 98s, J9s if deep enough.

AP, as 'committed' as you are, I wouldn't pay off that 4th barrel in this game with this hand. It doesn't help that two of his bluffs(if he has any/why you might have called twice postflop) just made the NF.

We're getting 3.5:1 roughly, and need to be right about 22% (1 out of 4.5) to break even.

From below range we're getting the right price to call. But I think I am being a little generous including a few extra combos of hands that I don't think villain has (ATo, AJs, 77).

(Equity, Win, Tie)
Player 1: 27.1% 25.7% 2.85% [JcJs]
Player 2: 72.9% 71.4% 2.85% {JJ+, 77, AKs, ATs, AsQs-AsJs, AhQh-AhJh, AhTs, AcTs, AcTh, AdTs, AdTh, AdTc}

Board: [Ts 7h 3d 2h 5h]
Deal To: River
Dead Cards: {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials



A more realistic range is

(Equity, Win, Tie)
Player 1: 18.9% 17.2% 3.42% [JcJs]
Player 2: 81.1% 79.3% 3.42% {JJ+, 77, AKs, ATs}

Board: [Ts 7h 3d 2h 5h]
Deal To: River
Dead Cards: {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 500000 trials


If we remove ATo, AJs/AQs, and give him ATs and all AKs combos, then it's a fold. And if we add AQhh and AJhh back in were down to 17% equity.


And this is to break even against V2, we haven't even considered V1s range. He can have a random T, T7, 77, 33, etc.


I prefer a fold here. I think the turn bet seems more on the side of "let's add more money in the pot" as oppose to betting small to get you out of the hand. And the river shove makes it more likely V is near the top of his range.



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What's with small raise preflop? You are over 300bb deep and another player is over 200bb. Loose/passive table means you usually shouldn't have to worry about 3bets so I'd be opening this to at least 12, 15 or more is better. Has V2 ever 3bet before? I'm not happy calling but this deep and IP call seems mandatory.

After the shortstack calls and the flop comes T high rainbow, is there really an reason V2 would bet pot against a shortstack? There's just no fold equity, it makes no sense. If V2 is competent at all, which OP believes he is, then this is a fold on the flop.

A more realistic range is - KK, AA.

It's tough to rationalise sometimes when you are there but when your villan overcalls the flop I just don't think we are ahead here with JJ almost ever.. And if we are ahead we probably don't have great equity to win this pot anyway. Fold Flop to villans overcalls of the Allington and then walk away from the table because I would be tilted in JJ was the best hand here, but I really doubt that is often enough to make that call..
After that turn is obv call, river is a fold......

Ugly situation. I think the mistake here was calling on the flop. V2 made a big reraise out of the BB and then leads for a pot sized bet on the flop. If you are putting him on solid play there isn't much in his range you beat.

If I thought he could do this with AK then I might call the first flop bet but when V1 shoves for slightly more it's time to fold. Seems insane to fold for $40 but really it's fold then or play for entire stacks. V2 has less then a pot sized bet left after he calls, if you think he has enough draws or weak hands in his range then shove the flop. Given the action that isn't likely to be the case, far more likely he has an over pair and you don't beat any of them.

To be fair, V2 couldn't re-raise since the all-in didn't reopen the action.

That said, I'd be hard pressed to fold until the river. There was a large enough chance Hero could be good with the small calls required.

Fold flop both times

In LLSNL, when people tell you a story you should generally believe them. Ask yourself how this player would play aces here. What about kings? Queens? This line is very consistent with a big overpair. Once he fires every bullet in the chamber, he's either crazy and bluffing, or he has the goods.

OTT, it's a dry sidepot and he's STILL betting. Your jacks are no good. Fold and move on.

As an aside, you'll get to see his cards anyway because the other dude is AI.

Villian's betting pattern makes it tough to put him on something. I think it's too tight to fold 100% on the flop and that bet. I would lean on calling most of the time, maybe 80%. There aren't many draws for V to worry about here and if he had an overpair he would want someone to call him with a middling pair, AT, or a smaller over like what you have.

Turn bet is suspicious, he's not trying to get you to fold but is still committing money (with another person already all in). Looks like a blocker bet to me, whether or not he has a marginal hand here like 9s or a heart draw I'm not sure. Don't think folding here is ever an option in position, I don't think a raise/jam would be out of the question either.

River jam with the 3rd heart I think is a fold. Either he had the overpair the entire way or he improved. There is another guy all in, so would he shove $250 with air here to win $150 pot and then lose the main? If so what possible hand would he have? AKo? 98s? I think it's safe to fold here, plus you get the marginal benefit of seeing the hand since there is another all in.

Also, my guess based on the betting pattern is he had AKh or AQh and got there. Pot size bet to steal, turn was small to set price on his nut draw, jamming clear option on the river.

I very much appreciate all the feedback. Thank you all.

RESULT:
HERO: after a lot of agony, hero folds JJ.
V2: reveals AK, scoops side pot
V1: AT, scoops main pot

It sounds like this may actually be a good fold, but it felt awful. Mostly I'm learning, from all your posts, that I really have a lot to learn. I was really uncomfortable with a strong feeling about V2's range... AA, KK, QQ, TT (for trips), AK... It just didn't make a lot of sense to me that he'd bluff $75 on the turn when V1 is already all in, at such a huge pot - that felt like a value bet - and then $250 all in on the river...with A high - but I was wrong, he did have AK. Of course, he only won that $75 on the turn, and V1 took the main pot.

I was not thinking clearly, and was not calm throughout that hand. I was very uncomfortable and confused and had to walk from the game to cool off after that hand.

Oh - and 'why the small raise with JJ?'... just got done with Jonathan Little's Low Stakes Cash Games book, where he advocates 3.5BB raises like this - and was giving it a try for the day. I normally raise more in 1/2NL with a hand like JJ from that position, but was trying to work on my post flop play, as his book advises. At that point in the session, I was playing for five hours or so and doing well with these smaller preflop raises, so kept it going. I actually still like it. I feel like it gets me out of the mind set of marrying my premium hands in these kinds of games - and more in the mindset of better postflop play with a wider range.

Thanks again everyone.

Results are a total wtf. The games are good my friend. Go crush.

Wow those results are definitely wtf - this guy is a whale and he's lucky he ran into the bottom of your premium range and got a flop that made JJ the worst big pair to hold. If you ever have TT, KK+ he's getting stacked.

Just for fun, I'd look him dead in the eye and say "I'll have to get you back for that". Then only value bet this guy to death / call down wider.

I think it's still a good fold, don't be results oriented.


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How can you guys fold flop getting 11:1? We can almost set-mine the turn, and V2 can still have air because he wouldn't have folded anything for $40 more either. He should play honestly on the turn. Pretty clear flop call the second time around. The first time around probably nit-folding due to the bet-sizing.

Fold turn. Him betting here with AK is pretty lol.

Fold river.

This turn bet, given ranges, screams strong hand IMO. Especially if he's thinking about your range and understands that you likely have something here

That is some crazy results. I'd definitely make a note of V2; that is not standard play. The flop pot bet is just crazy. Flop is bone dry and he bets pot into two 3bet callers, the short stacker with a SPR of 1.5.

Despite results, I'm a firm believer that in a standard 1/2 game you're much better off folding flop here if you have any sort of read that villain is a solid player. I guess I'd argue these results are actually proof of that, as we have to be calling flop believing that villain has exactly AK or perhaps AQ if he's 3betting that so when no A or K comes and after the weak turn bet we basically have to call river. Every other hand that he's 3betting preflop is ahead or just made top set. Obviously line dependent, but as how the rest of the hand played out we basically have to call down. If he's got the stones to barrel AK on flop and turn we'd have to call river, right? I didn't make a comment on as played before results so this is all just in hindsight.

Idk, I hate the line because you're bluffcatching with a hand you usually want to be pushing the action. With that said, I doubt you were looking to get your whole stack in with an unimproved 1 pair JJ. There surely must be better spots than this one.

V2 is clearly not a solid player but it may be that he is OK in general and doesn't understand the logic of protected pots. His turn play is bad and his river bluff nuts. He is risking $250 in the hopes of getting $150 because he can't expect to win the main pot. This sort of over bluff has to work most of the time just to break even.

Even against bad players you are almost never beating both V1 and V2. Dealing with these occasional weird hands where villains play so badly they get you to fold the best hand is an important skill at 1/2. You have to learn to not let this tilt you, shrug and move on.

Jonathan Little played I think 35 hours of 1/2 researching that book so I would suggest you ignore his bet sizing suggestions (and he actually suggests 6 here right?). I suggest you open to 10 + 1BB/limper with your entire range.

This hand is bizarre. V2 likely sees your 8 dollar bet as weak so he 3 bets. Why V1 doesn't jam pre I don't know but 1/2 players do this with AK. They flat and then just jam any flop because it's hard to make a pair, right?

V2 also goes a little crazy with TPTK 250BB deep. I would never expect you to be good at showdown against "solid" villains with JJ. At minimum V1 usually has a bigger overpair and V2 a set if not a straight or flush.

But they showed up with unbelievably weak hands in this situation. If your opponents regularly play like this you should treat overpairs like the nuts. But most villains even at 1/2 are not this crazy. The few that are tend to give ample warning by frequent aggression pre flop as well as poorly executed bluffs.

Here V2 basically quadruple barrels TPTK in a 3 bet pot where you should have him beat every time you call on the flop. It's possible he put you on an overpair and thought you would fold to enough aggression particularly with the flush possibility....but more likely he's just an idiot who overvalues TPTK.

It's important to identify players with this trait. People who refuse to fold overpairs and TPTK are cash cows when deep stacked. I've even seen quite a few OMCs with this trait. If they have AKhs on A764JTccdhc they are paying off everything. Now most OMCs do not play like this but you would be surprised how many "rock" type players refuse to fold TPTK and overpairs.

Once you identify these players realize 2p is the nuts. Any overpair is usually worth three streets of value.

However even against these types I'm folding JJ here since V1 can have 3 combos TT 1 combo JJ 18 combos QQ+ and only 12 combos AT, and the way the hand has been played AT is the least likely, particularly as some players will fold AT to a 3 bet and very few will 3-bet it so it should rarely be in V2's range and only sometimes in V1's range.

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Fold flop

Fold turn

Call river now that we're here and have invested so much money. You're beat about 88 percent of the time, though.

Op played well. I'm folding river, never folding before river. Just lol @ wanting to fold to the initial flop bet or fold for the extra $40. Mubs at it's finest. I'd expect this action from AQ/AKo but wouldn't expect his action on the turn/river with those hands.

It really tilts me when players bet to create a side pot when they have air, like why are you bluffing me when you can't beat v1? It's 1 instance where I'll vocally rip on the player who does that to me, dude created a $75 pot on the turn so he could bluff $250 on the river to take it down, just insane.

Why? This isn't a tournament. We aren't trying to eliminate a player from the table.

I have put money in the pot. If I think I am going to lose what's invested in the main pot but can win the side pot with a bluff and mitigate my losses on the hand, I am going to do it.

Also, you won't believe I am bluffing at a side pot when a hand is going to showdown no matter what, so you are more likely to fold to this bluff.

Pretty sick play by V2. Could be that he figured there's a good chance he's ahead of the desperate shortstacked V1 and needs to get you out of there to have a chance at scooping it. Sometimes players will throw out a small bet to see how you react & test the strength of your hand, then use that information on the next street. Unless you have a mortal lock, you generally wouldn't let the turn go off so cheaply with a strong hand.

I probably play it the same way you do, though JJ is the razor's edge hand, and V2 got lucky you didn't have QQ+. With 99 or less, you'd probably be out of there on the flop.

V2 was the one with the nut no-pair AK. Not sure if he's bluffing or just frustratedly throwing bad money after good.