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1/2 JJ 1/2 JJ

04-08-2021 , 04:21 PM
I’m in middle position with JJ $285 stack

Folds to me and I raise to $12. Two callers, SB and BB. Both had about $250 stacks. Pot is $36

Flop 952 all

SB leads for $20 and BB raised to $50. I folded without thinking too much about it. Is this a fold 100% or so I ever mix in calls? The BB has been playing very snug and hadn’t raised much. I assumed he flopped a small flush or a set and just mucked. I was right what he had but even with the set I assume I might have some calls mixed in? Just don’t want to be punting money away. Thanks

Results:
SB had KK
BB had 55

Runout was J and A

Not sure why SB didn’t reraise preflop.
1/2 JJ Quote
04-08-2021 , 04:35 PM
Yeah I'm unsure on this sort of spot too, default fold but curious to hear comments
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04-08-2021 , 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebus
Yeah I'm unsure on this sort of spot too, default fold but curious to hear comments
I know it’s 1/2 and they generally always have it. I assume at higher levels like 2/5 and above the BB re-raising could be a flush draw.
1/2 JJ Quote
04-08-2021 , 05:21 PM
I have to ask about your table image and that of the SB. Are you viewed as a skilled TAG? Is the SB skilled? In isolation, the SB looks like didn't 3-bet because he wanted to see a flop without an A. The answers to these questions (and more) will help to determine how to play against him in the future.

As to the fold, I agree with you. Though I would probably piss and moan a little. As to the J on the turn? Forget it! I've lost count of the times I would have hit after folding. What you're not seeing is the other 20 times a spot like this would have lost bigtime.
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04-08-2021 , 08:21 PM
this is never a fold. You want to be calling 100%. SB will usually have some random pair and BB can be raising smaller made hands or NFD's. Call and evaluate turn, your Jd is often good if it hits, but youre never looking to get it allin at any point. Basically if the D hits everyone is gonna slow way down which adds value to your Jd. If it doesnt hit everyone will probably still slow down except for the flushes and sets, and even the sets might peel a free one to see the river.

Last edited by javi; 04-08-2021 at 08:49 PM.
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04-08-2021 , 08:59 PM
Since they both called from the blinds their ranges could be pocket pairs, suited hands, or even random two pair suited hands. When someone leads out on a monotone flop from OOP, and gets raised, one of them most likely has at least 2 pair (without knowing them) it's fine to get out of the way here. If we call now, it's not going c/c ott I can assure you, so without any further reads the fold was fine.
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04-08-2021 , 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKon
I have to ask about your table image and that of the SB. Are you viewed as a skilled TAG? Is the SB skilled? In isolation, the SB looks like didn't 3-bet because he wanted to see a flop without an A. The answers to these questions (and more) will help to determine how to play against him in the future.

As to the fold, I agree with you. Though I would probably piss and moan a little. As to the J on the turn? Forget it! I've lost count of the times I would have hit after folding. What you're not seeing is the other 20 times a spot like this would have lost bigtime.
They would consider me a TAG. They’ve seen me raise pretty much 100% of hands preflop I’ve been involved in. I’ve been trying to limit
Limping to only certain hands. The SB seemed somewhat skilled until this hand. The only thing I assume is he was trying to get trappy/cute with the hand. I did see him already lose 3 decent size pots with KK, KK and QQ (two where he was initial raiser and one where he 3bet with KK). So maybe he got gun shy on the 3bet this time.
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04-08-2021 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by javi
this is never a fold. You want to be calling 100%. SB will usually have some random pair and BB can be raising smaller made hands or NFD's. Call and evaluate turn, your Jd is often good if it hits, but youre never looking to get it allin at any point. Basically if the D hits everyone is gonna slow way down which adds value to your Jd. If it doesnt hit everyone will probably still slow down except for the flushes and sets, and even the sets might peel a free one to see the river.
Seems like never folding is burning money at times. I do feel like calling some % of the time makes sense though. It just seems like with me being the aggressor preflop and then it going bet, raise into me would be pause for some concern. Obviously the J helps here and not in terrible shape agains two pair, sets or even the baby flushes. I do appreciate your input. I was mainly concerned with the BB as I had never seen him raise without a strong hand. Never a single pair holding.
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04-08-2021 , 09:21 PM
You’re often behind and have no visibility when you have or make the best hand, with reverse implied odds when you do improve
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04-08-2021 , 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian13
They would consider me a TAG. They’ve seen me raise pretty much 100% of hands preflop I’ve been involved in. I’ve been trying to limit
Limping to only certain hands. The SB seemed somewhat skilled until this hand. The only thing I assume is he was trying to get trappy/cute with the hand. I did see him already lose 3 decent size pots with KK, KK and QQ (two where he was initial raiser and one where he 3bet with KK). So maybe he got gun shy on the 3bet this time.
In which case, he could be trying to conceal the strength of his hand and with his donk bet trying to get value from his overpair - which would have backfired even if the BB didn't hit a set. I assume that if the BB folded to his donk, you would have called.

However, if he 3-bet pre and bet the flop, that would have given him the best chance. Still, some hands are destined to lose.

Just burn this guy's playing in your brain and wait to flop a set, or two pair on him and enjoy.

Oh, and to those saying to call a donk + a raise are just wrong (in my opinion), especially when they don't explain it fully.
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04-08-2021 , 11:49 PM
I would fold here, too, you're rarely good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by javi
this is never a fold. You want to be calling 100%. SB will usually have some random pair and BB can be raising smaller made hands or NFD's. Call and evaluate turn, your Jd is often good if it hits, but youre never looking to get it allin at any point. Basically if the D hits everyone is gonna slow way down which adds value to your Jd. If it doesnt hit everyone will probably still slow down except for the flushes and sets, and even the sets might peel a free one to see the river.
I really don't get any of this at all, especially the part where you say you think some random pair will be donking and then some marginal hand or NFD will be raising, but then our J is often good. Then you want to continue 100% of the time onto the turn that will be ~1 SPR if SB calls, but you never want to get all of the money in at any point.
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04-09-2021 , 12:44 AM
Ok so lets pretend BB has KQdd best case scenario. If he raises and gets overcalled behind by hero what does our hand look like? It looks a lot like we have AK nfd. Even if hero had AJdd is hero ever 3betting flop against all this juicy action with the nuts? Hell no. And if hero has AK nfd and the 4th diamond peels thats it, everyone freezes. If everyone is freezing on even a KQdd type hand then that means they are also freezing on literally every single other big hand beneath this, which means now having a J high flush actually aint that bad. It's not like 64dd is gonna jam the turn a 9527 monotone runnout.

The only "marginal" hands I expect that would raise from the BB are all quite strong. Mostly flushes, flush draws, and sets. Every single one of these is forced to pot control if a 3rd player stays in the pot who has lost initiative. When the initial raiser who also has position goes from raising to flatting it is usually a very strong range.
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