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Old 08-04-2013, 12:04 PM   #1
BlaneH
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1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Hero :is 25 year old white kid. I've been at this table for about an hour or two. I've been pretty card dead but have taken down a couple pots pre and one or two with a flop cbet. I've been loosening up because 2 fishie drunk guys just sat down and one is clueless. As in calling shoves with runner runner straight draw clueless. Hero was down 75 in the first hour due to a few missed cbets and whiffing on a draw. Just topped up to max a few hands ago. Stack is 320ishnow.

Villain 1: is a 50+ asian guy listening to an ipod and browsing on his phone. He has been playing about as snug as I have. Hasn't 3 bet me. He's opening a few pots and value bet 3streets Q10 on Qxxxx board vs fish guy for his short stack. Seems solid but maybe a little tighter than the Q10 hand would indicate. Has been attacking my limps into multiway pots occasionally.Sitting on 280-300

Villain 2 :is a 20ish white kid wearing a hoodie. Just sat down an hour ago and has been the most aggressive player besides me so far. He min 3bet one of my HJ or CO opens and I check folded on a 882 board. Seems spewy but hasn't really shown down many hands to judge. Stack is 220.

Clueless fish is our single limper

Hero is in CO with J9 and calls, mostly with the understanding that I may be raised by V1 a small amount of times. I was comfortable playing a pot if it went multiway and to stop the idea that he can just relentlessly punish me when I was trying to see cheap flops vs the fish. If V2 were to open, I have position and would call as well. There's probably an argument for opening here but I honestly expected V1 to fold and see a cheap multiway pot.


V1 is BTN:Opens to 15

V2 in SB Calls
Hero Calls

V1 has been attacking opening against these limped pots semi frequently so his range is wide. He also has loosened up along with everyone else since the fish has sat down so his range is fairly wide here obviously. V2 should have a lot of small PP and broadway type hands here but he hasn't showdown much so it is not a solid read.

Flop: Q810
Pot: $44
V2: Checks

Hero?
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:21 PM   #2
timmay28
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

easy raise pre. generally dislike limp/calling this oop.

as played, donk $25-30ish
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #3
Garick
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Bleh! Board is sopping wet and there are no fish in the hand, so we can expect a lot of check-backs from V, which would suck. I hate donking into an opener (esp if it's aggro player) in general, but I this case I think we have to.

I prob lead for an amount that looks like a draw trying to set a cheap price but is actually to induce. Say $20, and 3-bet any raises to rep a semi-bluff. The problem with this line is that calls still kinda suck, as there are so many cards that can kill your action and/or your hand. Another option is a PSB/overbet repping a TP/2P type hand that is afraid of the board and hope someone jams over it as a semi-bluff. This would be better if there were a fish in the hand who would flat with pair+draw type hands, though.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:46 PM   #4
BlaneH
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

I knew there would be issues with my line pre. I had gotten back from my first break and was feeling out what was happening at the table since I had been gone. I also have been trying to loosen up in a bit so I suppose I should be raising with my image. I really think it's a small leak if it is one. I just didn't like the idea of cbetting 4 ways if I raise and it called around. Table was frequently going 6 ways+ in both limped and raised pots.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:18 PM   #5
nuknuk420
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

i dont really donk bet even with my huge hands i tend to stay in flow...so i would still check this against an aggressive opponent....depending on bet size and if the other V calls the buttons bet (assuming he bets) i would check raise or possibly just call and lead turn...honestly depends on action and sizing....however i dont think a donk bet is bad i just dont really do it so i wouldnt here either
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:28 PM   #6
docpangloss
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Donking on this board will really only get action from big hands. Flopped sets, straights, and combo draws will certainly raise you up, but AA/KK and other big hands (even top two) will be pretty cautious here, and call if they continue at all. Not only that, but if you check the turn you will almost certainly get checked back, whereas if you continue on the turn you'll only be called/raised by someone with pretty solid equity.

Check-raising is a better line because on this board it looks really really semi-bluffy, barring you aren't viewed as a nit (which you apparently are not). You'll be repopped or called by worse more often.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:53 PM   #7
Garick
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Quote:
i dont think a donk bet is bad i just dont really do it so i wouldnt here either
This is not a good reason. There is a time and a place for just about everything in poker, so just saying "I don't do x, no matter what" is lazy. We can argue if this is the right time or place, but it's obviously not never, and "staying in the flow" is nowhere near as important as board, holding, villian type, villain range, etc.

Would you not donk bet the nuts on a drawy board against a V who loves to raise donk bets but is otherwise afraid of drawy boards and likely to check back?

Again, I'm not saying that this is the situation here, just saying that if something's not part of your game because it's not, that is a huge leak.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:41 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

As played my action would be depending on the tendencies of Button really.

I play almost exclusively against Chinese and Korean people in live games and one thing I know from them is that in absence of good poker literature in their language, their game is not very balanced and they lean to aggression a lot.
They like to cbet with high frequency if they believe it provides folds or if they have a draw.
They also overbet drawy boards to protect themselves from draws with good holdings. So unless the asian villain in question is not some old bloke migrated to US and learned the game there. I'd definitively check and let him hang himself.

If you have a reason to believe he will just check behind then I'd lead out 30.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:28 AM   #9
BlaneH
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Hero decides that villain on the BTN is unlikely to cbet on this board against the 2 other decent players at the table. I elect to donk for both value and to charge the tons of draws that are out there. I hesitated cause I didn't know if my image was going to lead to them folding but on this board I can be semi-bluffing here a lot as well.

Hero bets $25
Both Villains call

Turn: 4

A pretty beautiful safe turn card for us but also doesn't lead me to believe I'll be getting much value.

V1 Checks, Hero?
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:48 AM   #10
TNTravis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaneH View Post
Hero decides that villain on the BTN is unlikely to cbet on this board against the 2 other decent players at the table. I elect to donk for both value and to charge the tons of draws that are out there. I hesitated cause I didn't know if my image was going to lead to them folding but on this board I can be semi-bluffing here a lot as well.

Hero bets $25
Both Villains call

Turn: 4

A pretty beautiful safe turn card for us but also doesn't lead me to believe I'll be getting much value.

V1 Checks, Hero?
Hero has to bet here. Can't give a free card that could possibly beat you. Any heart, Ace or 9 river is a disaster. As pot is $119 you have to bet more than $40 just to charge the first V behind you the wrong price if he is holding hearts or KJ, and if he were holding KJhh here then he is probably calling any bet. I think I would size this around 60-70% of pot, say $65-85 as I think any hand that calls $50-60 still calls there and sets up a more believable river shove if non heart/non ace hits. Be prepared to be raised AI here by the NFD and some sets maybe even QTs.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:18 AM   #11
Jabari
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

If you donked and both called, I think you must charge them and keep on betting Turn blank too. Problem is that whatever you bet, if both call the pot swells into so big that commitment to call becomes big.

I would bet 70 with the plan:
If anyone raises, I'm shoving on the turn
If either call, I'm shoving on the river that is not a heart

If river is a heart, I'm most likely checking and giving up to any big bet from SB or bet from button followed by a call from SB.
If river is a heart, button bets and SB folds, I'd curse my horrible spot and try to figure out how often I need to be right to make a good call or disciplined laydown based on bet size.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:25 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

You flopped the nuts. Build a pot, start betting. End thread.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:45 PM   #13
BlaneH
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Obviously knew it was a bet. That's a pretty worthless post. I was looking for people's plan on rivered hearts and bet sizing but thanks for your helpful post that I should bet with the nuts.

When I was called in both spots, I knew I had to barrel the turn but think I went a little too hard considering the board texture didn't change. I bet 100 since both of them flatting on such a bad board indicated that one of them might be fairly strong. Certainly was WAY too much, though the BTN did debate calling for a couple seconds. I figured this amount easily commits me to the river if I am called which makes me not want to vomit so hard on the river if a heart comes. After the session I decided 75 or 80 probably works just as well but allows me to get called more often.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:36 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaneH View Post
Obviously knew it was a bet. That's a pretty worthless post. I was looking for people's plan on rivered hearts and bet sizing but thanks for your helpful post that I should bet with the nuts.

When I was called in both spots, I knew I had to barrel the turn but think I went a little too hard considering the board texture didn't change. I bet 100 since both of them flatting on such a bad board indicated that one of them might be fairly strong.
Start planning for this on the flop. The way you played this hand screams "Now that you both called, I suddenly realize my flop sizing was too small and I need to make it up now." If you had bet $40+ on the flop, a $100+ turn bet would no longer look out of the ordinary.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:04 AM   #15
ManikMarlin
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Re: 1/2,J9s flops the joint,Line Check please.

I think you played it right, your thinking about downsizing the turn bet might also be right but from the reads you posted I would likely have shoved the turn in an attempt to look fishy (like a TP with a draw) and induce a top two hand to call. That's the only way I see you getting any more money from the Vs without giving them equity, so no loss if they fold.
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