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Old 02-12-2019, 10:02 AM   #1
hyperknit
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1/2 how to size

1/2 effective 600.
Grave yard game people playing a little looser than optimal.
MP fish limps. Hero CO 88sc to 15. SB tight passive ABC old man calls. MP calls.
3 way
(47) Flop KK3css
X x hero bets 25. SB calls. Fold.
(97) Turn 8h
X hero bets 65. Call.
(227) Riv Jc
X hero bets 150.

How to win the max vs KQ and AK?
how to size the turn? (with our range)
i never overbet

Last edited by hyperknit; 02-12-2019 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:39 AM   #2
MogFish
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Re: 1/2 how to size

Old man almost always has a K after calling flop. Old man ALWAYS has a K after calling turn.

I like the flop sizing. Can probably go $85 then like $325 on the river.


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Old 02-12-2019, 10:44 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 how to size

I like your sizing. You might have gone a tad higher on the turn. That's the spot to get extra money in. An over-bet would look odd, though.

I don't over-bet, either, but probably should. I don't think he's calling an over-bet, though, especially on that river. Maybe a younger, not-so-ABC player would.

God, I hope he didn't check/raise the river
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:06 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 how to size

Once you hit the 8, start potting. You think a 1/2 rec is EVER folding Kx?
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:26 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 how to size

I like it. Could have been slightly higher on turn and definitely close to PSB on the river.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:37 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 how to size

if this OG has a K then he will likely not let it go for an OB

he'll probably say , " i gotta see it " or something , these guys never fold there big hands bc they sit there and do nothing waiting for these moments

i think you could bet 300 OTR AP
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:40 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 how to size

You’re range betting flop I’m assuming? You need to Overbet turn then. Make it 1.2-1.5x pot OTT and then shove rivers. We have all the strongest Kx and KK.

Can also do this with bluffs like JT/QJ (theoretically) to block Villains strongest Kx hands.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:30 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by DooDooPoker View Post
Youíre range betting flop Iím assuming? You need to Overbet turn then. Make it 1.2-1.5x pot OTT and then shove rivers. We have all the strongest Kx and KK.

Can also do this with bluffs like JT/QJ (theoretically) to block Villains strongest Kx hands.
But we expect (and want) a call. Why would we ever expect it to work as a bluff against someone we think will call? If we don't think he'll call, don't over-bet.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:36 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 how to size

Please refer to the COTM
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:42 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 how to size

$300 on river.

Flop - Unless you think the SB folds QQ-99, I don't see a reason for cbetting last to act. If turn is checked again, you can delay cbet. Sure, there are KX hands in your pre-flop raising range, but sometimes those hands can be checked on this texture.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:23 PM   #11
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1/2 how to size

Quote:
Originally Posted by samo View Post
$300 on river.

Flop - Unless you think the SB folds QQ-99, I don't see a reason for cbetting last to act. If turn is checked again, you can delay cbet. Sure, there are KX hands in your pre-flop raising range, but sometimes those hands can be checked on this texture.


If we bet flop we can get A,Q,J,T,9 unpaired cards to fold

300 on the riv seems a bit excessive r u just advising this or is this big value bet something u do?

Last edited by hyperknit; 02-12-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:18 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
If we bet flop we can get A,Q,J,T,9 unpaired cards to fold
300 on the riv seems a bit excessive r u just advising this or is this big value bet something u do?
True, though pps are unlikely to fold. Guess the plan is to check back turn and fold river unimproved?

$300 is ~1.3 PSB, which is what I would do in this particular case and hope the V thinks "same hand". These spots are relatively rare.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:43 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by wait View Post
Please refer to the COTM


Chicken Of The Month??
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:06 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
But we expect (and want) a call. Why would we ever expect it to work as a bluff against someone we think will call? If we don't think he'll call, don't over-bet.
You canít know if someone is going to call or not. Our sizing is a function of our range.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:10 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by DooDooPoker View Post
You canít know if someone is going to call or not. Our sizing is a function of our range.


Well u can usually assume theyíre gonna call 1/2 pot more often than full pot more often than over bet etc etc

Itís real bad if a king finds a fold
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:16 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 how to size

you know how hard it is to find a fold with a King for a player like this?

i think you gotta take advantage of the situation here, your bet size was fine but i bet he snap called right?

prob missed some value but we'll never know
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:18 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Well u can usually assume theyíre gonna call 1/2 pot more often than full pot more often than over bet etc etc

Itís real bad if a king finds a fold
Of course they fold more often to bigger bets, but generally a bigger bet is better when we have the nuts. If a K calls a 2x pot bet 30% of the time, it's higher EV than betting half pot and getting called 100% of the time.

If you assign a calling frequency function to villain the optimal sizing can be calculated. For a villain that calls at MDF the optimal sizing grows as our hand gets stronger until it's all-in for a sufficiently strong hand.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:30 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 how to size

Overbet turn up to 1.5x, i prolly go around 1.3x.
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:28 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2 how to size

You guys are cute with the overbet suggestions like it makes you cool or something. Imagine every not doing it for value.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:01 PM   #20
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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You guys are cute with the overbet suggestions like it makes you cool or something. Imagine every not doing it for value.
Imagine playing GTO/completely balanced against donks because it makes you cool and never deviating against well-defined ranges and population tendencies cuz lol balance at 1/2, the biggest fishing lake in the world. How cute.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:52 PM   #21
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Re: 1/2 how to size

Obviously sizing is an inexact science, and it depends so heavily on your opponent. I started using OBs a lot more over a few month period and IME opponents were just folding way too much and I was losing a lot of value. I've gone back to sizing that targets Vs entire range OTR and feel like i've been getting paid off a lot more consistently.

As someone mentioned, this is a pretty rare spot to find yourself in. When a tight old guy calls you twice on this board I think it's unlikely he'll fold river to almost any sizing. This seems like a pretty prime spot to OB river for $275-$300, but if you're someone that doesn't OB then I really don't have a problem with not deviating from your normal sizing.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:57 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Imagine playing GTO/completely balanced against donks because it makes you cool and never deviating against well-defined ranges and population tendencies cuz lol balance at 1/2, the biggest fishing lake in the world. How cute.
I'm sure you're crushing the spots you're saying to overbet on a forum. Doubt you've ever even overbet a turn for a significant amount. If you have your biggest pot would be above 200bb. Imagine a fantasy hand history where you can overbet turn and river and get called twice and still pretend you're balanced doing it. Fwiw I overbet alot.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:58 PM   #23
Minatorr
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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I'm sure you're crushing the spots you're saying to overbet on a forum. Doubt you've ever even overbet a turn for a significant amount. If you have your biggest pot would be above 200bb. Imagine a fantasy hand history where you can overbet turn and river and get called twice and still pretend you're balanced doing it. Fwiw I overbet alot.
Wow, you're so cool that you've played in a multitude of 600bb+ pots or $1.3k+ pots. What an accomplishment. Want a pat on the back?

Doubt you've ever played in games where in many instances over half the tables aren't braindead and are actually sharks, with only 1 or 2 (if you're lucky) fish on the table. LOL.

Imagine playing in those games. You'd get eaten up like little fish in those games.

LOL at balance and pretending that you have balanced triple barreling ranges, cold 4b ranges, 5b ranges, bluff-catching ranges, making sure to do at least close to or exactly at MDF on every street, etc at live tables. Not that you even know what these ranges even look like. But if you did, you'd be a ****ing genius yet an even bigger idiot than I thought.

Last edited by Minatorr; 02-12-2019 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:45 AM   #24
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post

How to win the max vs KQ and AK?
ship obv
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:29 AM   #25
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Re: 1/2 how to size

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
I like your sizing. You might have gone a tad higher on the turn. That's the spot to get extra money in. An over-bet would look odd, though.

I don't over-bet, either, but probably should. I don't think he's calling an over-bet, though, especially on that river. Maybe a younger, not-so-ABC player would.

God, I hope he didn't check/raise the river
agreed. the turn is where you can make this pot big. maybe even go 100. shove river. but that might be a tad ambitious.
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