1-2 NL Hero is SB w 450. V1 is CO w 230, V2 is BTN w 420. 3 limps, V1 makes it 8, V2 calls, Hero (As4s) calls, 2 more calls.

Flop (44) 9c8s6s, Checks to V1 who makes it 17, V2 who is loose and willing to make big raises and or shoves w just top pair, raises to 57.

Hero?

Not enough information about the Vs here, but if I can discreetly get a good indication V1 is going to call or fold I call.

I'd fold to that raise from V2; as V1 is cbetting into a flop that has probrably hit us or V2...
In turn V2 is raising, indicating he has caught at least some of the flop.
IF you did make the call, and V1 calls, your flush draw isn't in that bad shape BUT, if V1 repops, what do we do? If V1 folds and you're heads up and miss the turn, what do we do there, knowing that V2 is willing to stack off light, if we check into him, he will prob bet pot again, which by then is pretty bloated, and most LLSNL villains seem to know to shut down when you're flatting and the 3 card flush hits.
And if you do bet the turn or check raise, against this villain, would there be fold equity, knowing that he stacks off light.

I don't even mind folding this pre, but at the same time that might be really nitty since we are deep against all the villains, but I don't really like Ax oop.


Edited: For reasoning

Hmmmm, tricky.

I like that you and v2 are deepstacked and he can stack off with top pair.

I don't like being OOP and trapped between cbettor and raiser.

V1 raised smallish preflop and bet wet board into 4 opponents so I don't credit him with air here. Nor do I think he has big over pairs often since I think he would raise much bigger preflop with them.

Therefore I think if we 3bet or shove flop we'll isolate ourselves vs two-pair+ from either v1 or v2.

If we call we risk getting shoved on by v1 if he has set or two-pair. Also we are OOP and so will struggle to extract value if we hit flush (which is also too obvious to opponents).

Therefore I think I would fold here and let v1 and v2 duke it out.

Fold preflop. A-rag suited doesn't play well OOP against highly aggro villains.

As played, fold to the raise to $57. Hero probably doesn't have any FE so shoving isn't good and flatting OOP means hero probably only gets to see one card and might get raised right now.

Even with V1's 230 (if it goes in) I don't think we are priced into a battle with V2 here. Some outs may be gone ... we may even be ahead of V2 right now, but if not that wouldn't do well for our chips here.

If V2 is so loose you certainly can find a better spot to gii with them 'from ahead'.

And yes, Look at this 'great' Flop for your hand ... and you are still folding from OOP. GL

Unless we think they can BOTH be bull****ting, we probably have at most nine outs twice to bink, and hope the board doesn't pair.

Nine outs twice is about 32%, but one of our Villians has a half-sized stack.

If we think we can get it in better before one of them busts, folding isn't so bad.

I'm never folding a nut draw hand for 4 bb's when we are >200 bb's deep. As long as you are disciplined enough to only play for trips, two pair, the wheel or a flush draw and not get out of line on A-high flops mostly bluff catching with it I think it's a profitable hand to play.

On mobile so no stove, but call/call shoves from both otf intuitively doesn't look that bad even though it feels weird.

So if that isn't that weird, and we're gonna have an awkward spot OOP after calling then let's make it $170 to maximize FE and call off.

You know, I thought about this a second time. Good things come from leading out here. We can bet call w some odds or decide to 3 bet with a bigger pot and leverage with more incentive. As played the bet raise we are facing seems to lead us to a fold with nothing invested and facing the world.

We would have to stove the call range of V2, and maybe my first post applies if the ace is good and we don't mind the variance; however for $8 invested whatever, fold AP. There's lots of better spots with less variance that don't let our Vil potentially hit and run while stacking off light in most other situations.

Definitely +1

V2 raise is insanely strong & you have very little FE if he is willing to gii with a lot of hands. So I muck.

grunch: fold

this isn't even close to me regardless of almost any reads. aside from the size of the bet which is crushing our pot odds and leaving with us not nearly enough implied odds, it's a re-raise. we currently have a high-card hand... not even a bluff catcher. easy fold for me.

If I am V1, I am betting more with a set/2pr. This size bet is what I would make with a draw.

If you think V1 will call, you'll be getting 2.77:1 on your draw. So, if you think you can make another $125 if you make your flush ott, call.
Must remember that if V2 flopped 2pr/set, he has redraw to a boat going to the river.

So much can go wrong for us in this hand. I am as worried about v1 as v2 and we are caught in the middle.

Think about v1 range:

First he raises 3limpers to $8. That isn't a big pair or AK looking to thin the field. It is looking to build a pot vs the limpers who will inevitably call. It must be a good speculative hand like 22-99, suited connectors or suited Broadway.

Then he bets a really small amount vs 4 opponents when he cannot possibly think he has any fold equity. Furthermore the BTN is a loose player prone to raising big with weak hands. V1 could easily be looking to get raised here intending to ship with 2-pair+

Or v1 could have a straight draw, FD or both and be prepared to continue. While that sounds good for our hand it may not be. We would like both players to continue but if one has a set and the other a flush draw we're in deep trouble. We have only 7 flush outs and set has all its boat outs.

We could be up against a set and a straight with redraws to the straight flush. Then we have only 5 outs.

If we call and v1 folds our immediate pot odds go from poor to terrible.

If we call, v1 shoves and v2 folds our plans of stacking the deepstack are ruined and we're certainly up against a set a lot of the time getting pretty bad odds.

Even if flop goes well, we call, v1 calls, what happens on the turn when we miss our flush? That happens 80% of the time. We're OOP ace-high with even less fold equity than om the flop.

If we shove flop we're potentially allowing a set to gii against us for 420bb as a 75% favourite! It's just so bad it makes me feel sick thinking about it

Just too dangerous for me! There must be way better spots vs this deepstacked loose guy, why risk it now???

I will re-iterate my first post. If you can spy V1 grabbing chips for a call and he's not tricky with chip tells, this is a call. Otherwise fold.

UPDATE: Hero calls 57, V1 shoves all in, V2 flats the shove. Hero?

You just need to run pokerstove/equilab and calculate your EV vs a few reasonable ranges for V1 and V2. Worse case scenario is set (v1?) and 9s7s/7s5s

Best realistic scenario is they both have sets or 2pair vs set because then they take away each others boat outs so you're more likely to win if you do hit a flush.

You could hope for overpair vs weaker flush draw but I doubt that is what is happening here.

Grunch:

Fold. If we call the door is still open for V1. If we knew V1 was just going to call, it might be something to consider.

Edit: Fold the second time around.

Without working it out I would guess you need to fold after v1 shoves and v2 calls. Even if you were sure v2 could do this with TT-KK and then just check it down on turn and river (making aces outs vs deepstack) you are gambling loads just to stand a reasonable chance of taking what remains of v2s stack all the times v1 beats you both with set vs pairs or boat vs flush and pair. Even in that best case scenario I don't think it is worth it so I guess it is never worth it.