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Old 07-11-2018, 06:27 PM   #1
QuinnthEskimo
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1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

1/2 9-handed at a loose aggressive table. Hero is an early twenties white guy, he has bought in a 3rd time for 530$ total, but has managed to get back up to 563. We have shown a hero call, but mostly good cards and tight play. We have shown a lot of aggression in pots that we raise, but not as much in pots we have called. Villain is an early 20's black guy, he covers the table and has a loose aggressive style. He likes to call down light and apply pressure to his opponents.

Villain opens to 8 from MP
one caller in LP
Hero has 88 in the SB and calls
BB folds

Flop(26) 387

Hero checks
Villain bets 15$
LP folds
Hero calls

Turn(56) 3873

Hero checks
Villain bets 25$
Hero raises to 80$
Villain tanks and re-raises to 160$??

beautiful, now how do we proceed to get max value..

it is now 80$ to call for a pot of 296$

We have (460$)

Hero?
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:39 PM   #2
johnnyBuz
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Flip a coin and click it or rip it.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:47 PM   #3
Viral25
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

^And fold out T9 or 43s?

Flat and x/shove 100% of rivers.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:20 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

What are effective stacks? Does villain cover?

Can call or tank click back?

What I don't like about just call and check river and waiting to shove is the possibility villain checks back. If they really are very laggy though, we would expect a bet on the river.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:30 PM   #5
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuinnthEskimo View Post
Villain is an early 20's black guy, he covers the table and has a loose aggressive style. He likes to call down light and apply pressure to his opponents.
I did not know how to play this spot, obviously clear that we almost always have the best hand, but I've never been 3-bet after check raising the turn. Well maybe I have, but never with this much still behind. Shoving seems like turning our hand face up, It would be cool to turn 87s into a bluff shove, but there is just no reason to in this sort of game. It might be better to just call, but I also can't think of to many hands I would want to do that with in this spot either.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:10 PM   #6
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

What are you doing otf? X/r big and try to get stacks in.

Ap i would just click it back. Flatting would be ok but there are way too many river killing actions, and i think jamming might fold his draws and may make his overpairs fold at a slightly higher frequency
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:11 PM   #7
Irunsobad
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

I like a click back. Against this player type I don't think he's ever folding, and will sometimes ship over the top. Once he calls turn He'll almost always put the rest of the money in on the river. I like this better than call/leading the river all in or jamming right now as this is the line where villain is least likely to fold.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:27 AM   #8
shorn7
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

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Originally Posted by BIoodRose View Post
What are effective stacks? Does villain cover?

Can call or tank click back?

What I don't like about just call and check river and waiting to shove is the possibility villain checks back. If they really are very laggy though, we would expect a bet on the river.
I like this line, but I think clicking it again after tanking is best. Make it like $255 so we can comfortably shove the river. Calling can be OK as well but the only problem there is we likely lose value from all V's combo draws that miss OTR. If you click it back again and he has something like A3, he may spazz and do the GII work for you as well.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:32 AM   #9
thin_slicing
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Put in enough chips to min raise but after you do it say you were just trying to call.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:01 PM   #10
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
What are you doing otf? X/r big and try to get stacks in.
This is a fair point, I think that is my default line but sometimes I elect to just call and protect my drawing hands and 1 pair hands. I chose to do so in this spot against a more aggressive opponent who I anticipated to continue betting a lot of turn cards.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:07 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

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Originally Posted by thin_slicing View Post
Put in enough chips to min raise but after you do it say you were just trying to call.
Lol, this is probably the most +EV line, but I'm not about to start angle shooting. It is tempting, just not worth being such an *******.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:43 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

I ended up just jamming here, thinking well maybe he has 77..

He tanks, says he really wants to see it and eventually mucks.

Later on tells me he had 55?? don't really believe that. I did over hear him and his friend talking about what I had. His friend telling him "good fold, he had to have Aces.." lmao

so not really sure what was going on in this hand. In retrospect a click back seems best or If I really want to stoop low I would ask the dealer how much total, then go " 160 total? ok" slide in 160$ say "I think that's right" and then casually pull back my 80$ bet lol.. we would probably GII forsure.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:04 PM   #13
bigdaddycope
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

AP, def click back turn.


However, this is an AMAZING board for us to raise our sets on....we have so many straight draws and so many flush draws here AND we are deep. make it like 4-5x flop and blast away.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:20 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Reraising makes no sense to me. Villain seems pretty polarized with this line. It doesn't make any sense with TT-QQ. Maybe he can do this with Aces, but he'll probably bet most rivers if he values Aces that much. Flat and check shove the river seems to be the clear line.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:55 PM   #15
branch0095
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

If we're IP I'd just flat. Being OOP though, I'd click it back and jam river. I usually don't like taking a line where we're hoping for the opportunity to c/r river to get our value, as so much of the LLS player pool is showdown happy, especially when the pots start to get large. Plus when your c/r turn then V 3! over your c/r, they have a real hand almost always, and they aren't folding for a min-click. You may lose your V once in a blue moon when he's just clicking buttons, but that's very rare.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:59 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

He's clicking buttons right now.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:23 AM   #17
branch0095
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
He's clicking buttons right now.
Yeah, I tried to not let that information influence my line on the hand. It's still so very rare in a 1/2-1/3 game to have your turn c/r get 3! and have your V holding what essentially amounts to air. Usually at worst I think Vs are going to have combo draws and horribly overplayed OPs.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:47 AM   #18
AllTheCheese
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

I'm not talking about the results. It's just that whatever he has, he's clicking buttons, unless he's very nutted. But in that case, all the money goes in no matter what.

Even if you put combo draw heavy in his range, it's not clear that clickback is the best way to maximize value. Clicking back makes you an extra $80 every time he misses. But if he barrels his busted draw after we flat, which seems likely, since the whole hypothesis here is that he's THREEBETTING with a draw on a paired turn, then you make more money by flatting against that part of his range.

If you think he shows up with 99-AA a bunch, I guess clicking back is maybe better, but not by much imo, since if he's clicking buttons with JJ here, then he'll probably continue to click them on the river after we flat and check to him. Not to mention he may find a fold at some point with an OP.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:06 AM   #19
browni3141
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

I would call for sure. Don’t be afraid of missing value this way. It’s Unlikely that he checks back the river with a hand that would have called a 4-bet. Also, it is really easy to range post-flop 4-bets to the nuts.

Whatever you do, don’t be an angle shooting POS.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:04 AM   #20
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
I would call for sure. Don’t be afraid of missing value this way. It’s Unlikely that he checks back the river with a hand that would have called a 4-bet. Also, it is really easy to range post-flop 4-bets to the nuts.

Whatever you do, don’t be an angle shooting POS.
This makes a lot of sense to me, but while hands that call a 4-bet likely bet the river, It's also possible that villain puts me on a bluff, some big draw, thinks he needs to protect his one pair hand. In that case he might respond weirdly to a click back, putting me on a semi-bluff and shoving for protection. If that were the case, a click back gets value while villain would be content to check back the river.

After talking to villain later about the hand, he said he thought I had been playing really tight but had to start bluffing at some point. He said he thought I had AK and was trying to buy it this time.

I won't resort to angle shooting, that would make me nauseas for an extended period of time.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:36 PM   #21
branch0095
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Thumbs up Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuinnthEskimo View Post

I won't resort to angle shooting, that would make me nauseas for an extended period of time.
Good for you my man, keep it classy. I along with the overwhelming majority respect that. I find intentional angle shooting to be very scummy.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:38 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Op,

Call.

If he has a big hand like trips, the money goes in regardless.

If he has air, you give him a chance to bluff again on the river.

If he has a flush or straight draw and gets there, you get the money in on the river.

If he has a flush or straight draw and misses, you give him a chance to bluff on the river.

If he has some mediocre hand and one of so many scare cards come on the river, you give him a chance to bluff.

If he has a mediocre hand and the river blanks, you don’t get any more, but you prob weren’t getting any more on the turn anyway.

Against a passive player, whole different story, he has something strong on the turn and is often very willing to get money in there but will shut down on many rivers.

But against an aggressive player, great spot to call.
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Old Yesterday, 02:31 AM   #23
JockoRocko
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Raise 80 to 220


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Old Yesterday, 02:34 AM   #24
JockoRocko
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuinnthEskimo View Post
This is a fair point, I think that is my default line but sometimes I elect to just call and protect my drawing hands and 1 pair hands. I chose to do so in this spot against a more aggressive opponent who I anticipated to continue betting a lot of turn cards.
Here he can have many under hands so raise will be better

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Old Yesterday, 10:04 AM   #25
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Re: 1/2 Hero check raises turn for value w/ top boat, villain clicks it back. Relatively Deep

What I don't like about call and check river is it allows V to check back overpairs or wuss out with a missed draw. Most of the deck completes a draw or puts what can be an overcard to his overpair on the board. I disagree that V is polarized here, he should very rarely have a bluff. Instead he's got some big draw or made hand.

Definitely not a fan of the shove. I prefer a click back and shove river if he calls. No way I am letting him check back a worse hand.
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