1-2 Hand with Big Draw - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Calling is the worst option because shoving is better. By shoving you can give yourself anywhere from 5-15% extra equity depending on how wide V opening range is. V might decide you have a set and fold AK,KQ or even sometimes AA which is a great result

If u call theres ~300 in pot and V has 100 behind, not to mention he might fold if you bink river and if you miss you risk the small chance he might be bluffing with his missed flush draws etc,

Deeper stacks get, the better calling is

In this specific hand if you aren't shoving turn just fold

Last edited by flopturntree; 08-24-2017 at 11:06 AM.

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08-24-2017 , 11:06 AM

#27

Case2

old hand

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,303

Not finding the logic here.

Shoving might well be better than calling; for argument's sake, let's say it is.

How does that prove folding is also better than calling? Since folding has EV 0, if folding is better than calling, calling must have negative EV. Can you illuminate your thinking behind that?

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08-24-2017 , 11:22 AM

#28

flopturntree

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 867

My point is if you aren't going to shove when you know its better than calling you might as well fold..

Why call and risk putting yourself in unfavorable spot on river?

I'm never calling here

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08-24-2017 , 11:34 AM

#29

sauhund

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 5,936

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopturntree

My point is if you aren't going to shove when you know its better than calling you might as well fold..

Why call and risk putting yourself in unfavorable spot on river?

I'm never calling here

because it´s profitable to call.
math says so. folding is unprofitable.
enough reason for me.

why don´t you run a few sims on propokertools.com and check it out yourself?

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08-24-2017 , 11:40 AM

#30

mikko

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,863

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopturntree

You are right, I misread the hand, forgot we hit the 6 on the turn.. Which is ironic because makes shoving an even better play. If we take an extra couple of minutes, construct a realistic range of hands for V in this spot, and put it in a equity simulator over 500,000 hands, you will see shoving is the most profitable play. We realize all our fold equity (we sometimes get V to fold better like AK), and when he does call with sets/higher flush draws/hands that are ahead we will always have couple clean outs to the nuts.

Folding in this spot can't be too much of a mistake either but in my opinion its too weak. If you aren't going to push small edges like this then consider folding 86s in the SB. I think given V's sizing on flop and turn call is the worst option because you will be put into a very bad spot in the river when you miss and have 3rd or 4th pair, basically nut low

Folding, +Ev spots is rather big mistake. Huge mistake in this spot with EV being over $30 likely.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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08-24-2017 , 11:45 AM

#31

flopturntree

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 867

In a vacuum maybe calling is better than folding, but shoving is still better and more profitable

Like I said, calling you leave yourself vulnerable to being outplayed on the rivers, the only hand hes folding on river at this point is missed flush draws which you beat (unless he pairs up on river)? Or if you get there and he decides you have it? Why? Just get your money in good with most equity possible

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08-24-2017 , 01:07 PM

#32

dmccoy87

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 647

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopturntree

Folding in this spot can't be too much of a mistake either but in my opinion its too weak. If you aren't going to push small edges like this then consider folding 86s in the SB. I think given V's sizing on flop and turn call is the worst option because you will be put into a very bad spot in the river when you miss and have 3rd or 4th pair, basically nut low

This is why I avoid flatting out of the SB. Playing a hand like this is very difficult unless we 3bet pre to narrow ranges down, and it's not worth the tough spots we find ourselves in. Just my $.02

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