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Old 05-17-2015, 10:14 AM   #1
Notam
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1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Firekeepers Casino, 3am. 1-2 game allows $400 buy-ins and the game if fairly deep with a couple of short stacks, including a very short stack to my immediate right who has been giving away money with multiple $50 buy-ins (which is not a factor in this hand). I'm 4.5 hours into this all night session. Table is limp-cally, with very little three-bets pre flop. Good action post flop often. We are seven handed

Hero ($1,100, button): Tight aggressive. After losing a my $400 stack in the first hour, I've slowly chipped up to this nice position. In 4.5 hours, I've never open limped at this limpy table.

Villain ($380, MP): Loose passive pre-flop. Aggressive post flop. Villain is 3 to my right and has been at the table since the beginning. When we started he had a ~$700 stack, which dwindled to ~$400 when he lost it in a AA-KK suck out after three-bet over-shoving his ill-faited rockets. He reloaded two or three times since then with $400 buy-ins. He is playing ~60% of hands, often limps, sometimes open raises (only saw one, maybe 2 three-bets). He almost always calls a single raise. He often bets aggressively post flop, and often shows after his opponent folds when he has a hand (and doesn't presumable when he was bluffing). He does have an ability to get away from hands on scary boards. Ultimately, I'd describe him as a bad loose-agressive that is a good, but tricky mark.

Villain 2 ($600, MP, just right of main Villain): Plays a few too many hands, and is fairly straight forward.

On to the hand:

Pre: 4 limps to me (including V1 & V2) and I open $15 with AA. Two folds, V2 who calls, V1 3-bets to $100. I take some time to ensure I know approximate stack sizes, as $100 bills play here, and they are often hard to see. All three of us have bills on the table, they each have 1 and I have 5 (four of which are from V2 ). I ultimately call here. Thoughts? I think a 4-bet looks too much like aces, and I thought I would almost always lose V1 and probably V2.

V1 folds and we go to the flop heads-up.

Flop: ~$215. Flop comes A22r. Villain checks and I check behind. Thoughts. Villains 3B pre looked like JJ+, AQ at its widest, and AA (1 combo) and AK (8 combos) feel good about this flop, I figure he would bet the flop or turn with these so waiting makes sense. The other possibilities check-fold this flop. Ultimately, I think slow-playing this boat is best. Thoughts?

Turn: $215. Turn comes AA2(Q). I don't recall if the Q brought a back-door flush draw (sorry). Villain checks.

Hero? If you bet, what's your sizing? Villain has $280 behind and Hero has him covered. If you check turn. What the plan for the river? What cards to you want and don't want and if Villain check again, what's your sizing on the river bet?
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:21 AM   #2
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Click it back to 190 pre. As played bet tiny, like 90 and then the rest in otr.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:36 AM   #3
Dandelo1
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

I think the way he played this he likely has something like kk JJ TT. If you think he will call a bet, bet something small and get it in on the river. Check isn't bad here because SPR is so low you can get it in on the river anyway, and give him 1 more chance to make a 2nd best hand or a mistake on the river.

Oh, and I know SPR was already super low, but I think 4b pre is better than getting tricky here.
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:40 AM   #4
Garick
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Pre, bigger over 4 limpers, please. I go $20. Then 4-bet. V1 is tilted, you're not losing him, and V2 (who I assume is the one who actually folded pre, as V1 doesn't face another bet) is very unlikely to come along anyway given this very large 3-bet. Anything that calls that will call a 4-bet too. Given the sizing of the 3-bet and the effective stacks, I prob just shove and hope that looks less value-y.

AP, check back on flop is def correct. You murder the board. This is why you wanted to get it in pre, as V might actually get away from JJ-KK when and ace hits. Now check and hope he catches something.

Turn is a must bet so that we can massage the rest in by the river. I prob go small and hope he senses weakness and shoves. If we make it $80 and it doesn't induce, the pot will still be $275 with $200 left behind, so not impossible to get in OTR. If he doesn't call $80, he's done with the hand anyway unless he hits his two outer to an under-boat, so no point checking back and hoping for a miracle.
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:29 AM   #5
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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(who I assume is the one who actually folded pre, as V1 doesn't face another bet)
Yes, sorry, the blinds and two limpers fold.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:15 PM   #6
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

V2 limp-reraised. He NEVER is going to fold to a 4bet. He just limped the assumed range (TT-AA, AKs) with the intention of re-raising. Now he's suddenly going to fold at 1-2 NL at 3am?

Click to $300, get half his stack in the middle. Play from there.
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:41 PM   #7
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Pre, bigger over 4 limpers, please. I go $20
This, you can even go larger and you are still keeping in a ton of hands. Not many people understand set mining, so will call with 22-99. Also, when someone limp raises, thats like always the nuts.

Betting small on turn is a good idea as stated above. I cant think of any hands that can call a huge turn bet except maybe KK (though i suppose that goes ai pre).

I see everyone is saying to shove pre, but I feel like doing that might blow 77-99 out, and we want those hands coming along right?
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Old 05-17-2015, 10:37 PM   #8
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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Pre, bigger over 4 limpers, please. I go $20. Then 4-bet. V1 is tilted, you're not losing him, and V2 (who I assume is the one who actually folded pre, as V1 doesn't face another bet) is very unlikely to come along anyway given this very large 3-bet. Anything that calls that will call a 4-bet too. Given the sizing of the 3-bet and the effective stacks, I prob just shove and hope that looks less value-y.

AP, check back on flop is def correct. You murder the board. This is why you wanted to get it in pre, as V might actually get away from JJ-KK when and ace hits. Now check and hope he catches something.

Turn is a must bet so that we can massage the rest in by the river. I prob go small and hope he senses weakness and shoves. If we make it $80 and it doesn't induce, the pot will still be $275 with $200 left behind, so not impossible to get in OTR. If he doesn't call $80, he's done with the hand anyway unless he hits his two outer to an under-boat, so no point checking back and hoping for a miracle.
This hits the nail on the head. I think the range is even tighter, like QQ+ with an occasional AK which we can discount with given action. I don't think many players 3! with less than that based on my limited experience. A big 4! may look like a medium pair trying to shut it down b4/the flop. One thing that I keep noticing is I level myself more than anything. Playing straight forward in these spots is likely more profitable.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:57 AM   #9
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

RESULTS

I bet $125 OTT and V folded KK face up.

I'm not totally sure he would have called 4! Pre.

I think $75-90 may have worked OTT.

Oh well.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:17 PM   #10
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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RESULTS

I bet $125 OTT and V folded KK face up.

I'm not totally sure he would have called 4! Pre.

I'm not taking a run at you, but if you truly believe that, you need more experience in deep live cash; b/c I have never seen KK open fold to a reasonable 4bet pre-flop at 1-2 NL in my life. I've seen KK folded pre ONCE, and it was after a succession of events that totally made sense, and AA ruined themselves b/c they massively overbet in a spot where they HAD to have AA.

Earlier in my playing days, I did make the mistake of fearing that everyone would view my range as super tight and would peg me right away if I ever showed super strength with AA. Since then, I've finally come to terms that 1-2 NL guys, even if they SAY they think you have AA and believe you have AA...cannot fold to reasonable action.

Count his stack, take the opportunity to get half in pre-flop. It eliminates tough decisions, and A-high flops or other action killers will no longer cost you as much $.

If you think I am wrong, and the V would fold KK or QQ to a 4bet, then I want to hear some HH's where you 4bet 75s over and over b/c these players would only call with AA.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:07 PM   #11
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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I'm not taking a run at you, but if you truly believe that, you need more experience in deep live cash; b/c I have never seen KK open fold to a reasonable 4bet pre-flop at 1-2 NL in my life. I've seen KK folded pre ONCE, and it was after a succession of events that totally made sense, and AA ruined themselves b/c they massively overbet in a spot where they HAD to have AA.

Earlier in my playing days, I did make the mistake of fearing that everyone would view my range as super tight and would peg me right away if I ever showed super strength with AA. Since then, I've finally come to terms that 1-2 NL guys, even if they SAY they think you have AA and believe you have AA...cannot fold to reasonable action.

Count his stack, take the opportunity to get half in pre-flop. It eliminates tough decisions, and A-high flops or other action killers will no longer cost you as much $.

If you think I am wrong, and the V would fold KK or QQ to a 4bet, then I want to hear some HH's where you 4bet 75s over and over b/c these players would only call with AA.
Spot on, especially the last part.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:32 PM   #12
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Two things, if you are very sure his 3-bet range here is QQ+, then I don't mind the flat. It allows us to play perfectly against him post-flop and likely stack him in the flop comes in low and we know which cards will cooler us. If his 3-bet range is wider, I'm clicking it back and getting it in on most flops.

As played, bet out small on the flop, like $80. Check turn. Shove river. You might level him into thinking it's a bluff.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:38 PM   #13
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

I have seen players call 400BB at 2-5 with KK in a spot where the dude clearly had aces preflop. I've also seen scared money fold KK preflop to a reasonable 4bet and the other player tabled some non AA hand, usually QQ or AK.

There's really no reason not to raise again preflop, give him close to a minraise back. If you want to stack KK, you need more money in the middle so when 229r comes out, KK isn't afraid to get it in there. Once an A hits the board you probably can't stack him and it doesn't matter how you check or bet.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:58 PM   #14
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Think for a bit and shove pre-flop, then you'd have been able to tell us about the time a tilted fish folded and showed KK preflop at 3am after he'd 3-bet 1/3rd of his stack at you

Seriously though at 3am I'd just shove preflop to avoid myself having to think postflop.

As played I like donkatruck's idea of trying to do something weird to induce. Not sure what look's weirdest though. Maybe I'd try for the best of both worlds - check it to the river hoping for a K then when it doesn't come and he keeps checking just insta-shove after his river check.

He's got to at least think about why the hell you'd do that. Maybe he starts thinking about whether he had you beat all the way and now you've hit a boat on the river. Then he might think how unlikely is that and decide maybe you're bluffing. Mike Caro always says it's great for getting a call if you can convince your opponent you either have a monster or a bluff. You've got to think on this board what's the best way to make my hand look like a bluff.

I don't think betting the turn is any good because the Q hits your perceived calling range. With KK he's afraid of the Q like you would be if you'd called AA and not hit an A. On the flop he worried he was beaten by AA AK AQ or any Ax. On turn he worries QQ now beats him too. Of course if he has QQ you lose nothing by checking the turn because he's 100% betting the river or calling a river bet with it.

So, not sure what the best move is but I think it has to happen on the river...
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:02 PM   #15
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Also tiltbox5000 may be right: after an Ace comes on the flop it may be impossible to get any more chips out of him.

Maybe bet one chip on the river as a joke? It can't hurt...
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:59 PM   #16
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

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I'm not totally sure he would have called 4! Pre.
You don't have to shove pre-flop, you can make a small-sized raise to 200 dollars.

Why do so many people use the "totally sure" level of proof in poker? When you didn't 4-bet were you totally sure he was going to stack off on the flop?

How many times had you seen him 3-bet to 100 dollars and then fold pre-flop?

p.s. It's amazing to me how every time the Villain has a boat/set/nut-flush, almost everyone on 2+2 wants to shove. But when a 2+2er has the nuts he rarely bets aggressively.

You don't need a signed contract promising not to fold to 4-bet, so go ahead and 4-bet next time.
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Old 05-20-2015, 07:14 AM   #17
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Great conversation. I am certainly not proud of how I played this hand.

I like the click back pre, shove River line discussed here best.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:50 AM   #18
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Initial PF raise seems too small in a game like this, I'm probably making it $20-$25 here.

Flatting the 3-bet vs. 4-betting depends on whether there's more value in getting it in now against V1 or hoping that V2 comes along. Given that V2 seems semi-competent, I'm going to just get it in vs. V1 since he's never folding to a 4-bet (he's loose-passive, so his 3-bet range is already strong and he's not a strong player, so even if he should view your 4-betting range as nutted he's just going to get it in anyway).
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:12 AM   #19
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Keepers at 3am .. def open for more PF. Are you from the aviation school?

PF ... Sure you can flat here, but do you really want to fade a Flop facing 99+? I think you want him to pay a little more PF and I usually want to go to the Flop on my terms, not my opponents terms.

AP Flop ... Once he checks Flop I might tank a bit and make it look like I don't like the Ace either, then put out $75 or so. Don't want him to bink for free as we are still facing TT+ (30% of the deck). At least at this point in time we don't care if they hit, but I still want to put a feeler out there so he feels save shoving a boat OTT.

AP Turn ... Same as Flop IMO, less than $100 for sure. If I had bet the Flop I can check here 'out of respect' for the Flop call and 'now' let him try to improve for free.

If you truly believe that he would fold PF to a 4-bet, then why let him play against you perfectly post-Flop? That same rule has to apply, right? Is he really ranging you on QQ+/AK/AQ here PF and 'only' an Ax post-Flop? I think you need to learn how to sell a wider range or better take advantage of the image he is giving you. GL
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Old 05-25-2015, 05:08 PM   #20
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Also tiltbox5000 may be right: after an Ace comes on the flop it may be impossible to get any more chips out of him.

Maybe bet one chip on the river as a joke? It can't hurt...
and if it's a big chip.......
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:16 PM   #21
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20 View Post

If you truly believe that he would fold PF to a 4-bet, then why let him play against you perfectly post-Flop? That same rule has to apply, right? Is he really ranging you on QQ+/AK/AQ here PF and 'only' an Ax post-Flop? I think you need to learn how to sell a wider range or better take advantage of the image he is giving you. GL
Im confused. When we flat he is going to discount aces in our range, right? Wasnt that the whole point? Why do you think he will now play perfectly post flop (I assume we dont know an ace is coming)?
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:51 AM   #22
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Re: 1-2 Getting Paid with Boated Aces

It isn't aces villain is afraid of - we're assuming villain has mostly TT+ and very few AX hands himself since 3 aces are accounted for. Therefore villain is often afraid of hero having AX.

I think Answer20 is saying hero needs to bet flop tentatively in order to convince villain he has KK- himself. If villain is somehow convinced hero only bets AX+ on this flop then how can he call with KK- himself?

Hero somehow has to fake having a wide betting range in this spot.

Alternatively hero can take advantage of villain's perception of hero's tightness and start bluffing villain more frequently.
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