Hero: 21 year old which usually means LAG image even tho im TAG, however I'm not sure about my image at this table which has gone a little spew crazy since opening 30min ago. Only have played 1 hand and won after a Cbet

V1: 65 year old man struggling to move his chips from his stack into the pot, tho he does it often. At the time I had only seen him call 3 streets of betting with TPBK against a made straight on a dangerous board. Even with that he was up big... won with KT after raising and flopping a straight. His bet sizing is sporadic and unpredictable atleast so far.

V2: 50 year old TAG regular. Plays standard but gets tilted by seeing bad play, which he has certainly seen here.


Hero (212) raises to 12 with QdJd in MP
V1 (450) HJ Raises to 25
V2 (100) BTN Calls 25
Hero Calls 25
Pot: 78

Flop: Qc9d2h

Hero checks, V1 bets 50, V2 folds, Hero calls. Pot: 178

Turn Kc

Hero checks, V1 Bets 55, Hero?

not loving the flop call after a 3 bet vs an old guy with no read he bets wide. Calling is very different from leading in 1/2 from many villains. The read you're giving is that he calls a lot, not a read that he bets a lot.

shove or fold

I lean towards shove given stack sizes, decreasing bet size on the turn (relative to pot), and main goal of getting V1 to fold.

The read I had was he wasnt your ordinary old man. He showed signs of a calling station but also raised with KToff (got lucky and hit a straight). It was too early to know more.

If I'm not calling that flop bet why did I even call the pfr? This is a good flop... AK missed, JJ and below I'm beating.

3betting pre is a lot different than raising pre. You're oop against two players with a hand you don't want to play a bloated pot with. Fold pre to the 3bet IMO - calling the extra $12 isn't horrible I guess but I'm looking to flop better than top pair when I call.

As played, fold.

I agree here quite a bit.

AP shove or fold. I lean heavily towards folding. You can't call his bet OTT and expect to find a fold OTR, so you've pretty much have to call the river even if you don't hit your gin card. Shoving I don't think does much because I doubt he's folding for another ~75 at this point. And if he calls you're behind almost always and I'm sure he's calling a fair amount of the time given his action.

What do you think his range if for 3 betting you PF after you open/raised and 1 caller comes along? I bet your an underdog, combined with being OOP and a "TAG" player OTB = bad news. I bet even on that flop your flipping against his range.

Folding pre is good advice, but a call here isn't terrible with the pot odds you are being offered and the potential to get stacks in if you connect.

Calling the flop seems very loose. You have a backdoor draw and TPMK, and you are calling a 2/3rd pot bet from a 3betting old man. I think this is the place to fold.

On the turn, now you definitely fold. What can you beat here? If he has AK, he got there. If he has AA, AQ, QQ, or KK, he was already there. You beat JJ, and you have 2nd pair and a gutshot.

For those leaning to a shove: If you shove, he is getting about 4:1 on the call for 80 more. You cannot fold out anything but a pure bluff here. If I have AK, i'm calling 80 into a pot of 320 on this board as hero has shown almost no strength. You might convince me to fold AQ, but even then, i'd have to be sure you had KK or KQ to fold, and i'd probably hero call because the line just wouldn't make sense.

Also, I think the lack of knowledge of V also strongly advocates towards not stacking off light. If you know what V is doing, then I could possibly see a stackoff here if you are convinced it is +EV, but with no knowledge of how he plays other than one hand, you are basically walking right into the line of fire.

Fold pre, fold flop, fold turn. Against an old guys 3! Range you're crushed.

I said he wasn't an ordinary old man... ended up being an aggrodonk who went up big and then lost it all.

I don't see a problem calling 13 to win 65 preflop with QJs... and the flop call I don't see as an issue cuz I'm ready to bet any turn other than a K or A and take it down...

I folded to his bet after the K came.

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The problem is you flopped top pair and lost more. And you're not deep enough to call for straight/flush/2p.

+1

There was a really good post in another similar thread about why this type of hand can get you into trouble. While I can understand wanting to play the hand, the flop is exactly why you shouldn't. You caught a good piece, but against a 3 bet range from an average 1/2 player, you are still way behind, and now cost yourself another 25bb.

the king on the turn probably saved you some money.

"Hero: 21 year old which usually means LAG image even tho im TAG"

Since when do TAG players call QJ OOP ?

There's just so, so much bad advice on this board anymore. Everyone tries to portray this 'supernit' image that they only play AA and KK ... I'm betting if we sat there and watched you play, you are playing a lot more hands than anyone realizes. (not directed at OP)

On to this hand: 1) I'm calling the 3-bet 100 percent of the time because I KNOW villain has a huge hand here and is going to stack off if I smash the flop. 2) I'd just fold the flop. He 3-bet you pre and now is showing strength. He really isn't doing this with AK. You didn't hit the flop hard enough to continue. Just fold and save the $50. Now the K hits the turn and there's no reason to continue.

I agree with most of this, but why is he not Cbetting this flop with AK?...

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3-way in a 3-bet pot? People tend to play more straight-forward and won't bet with AK there in my experience.

and it was V1, a 65-year-old, who 3-bet pre. a high percentage of 65-year-olds don't 3-bet AK pre.

You find sufficient implied odds at 100BB to play this hand OOP and play fit or fold on OTF?

Approximately 12:1 from V1 and another $75 that is probably going in from V2? Yeah, that's sufficient for me to call $13.

I would be calling pre, especially with the other guy coming along. This might be a leak since we'll be OOP but it's a min raise so it's only slightly -ev if it is. But we can't commit any more after this flop. You aren't looking for TPGK when you call with your implied odds.

Turn is a shove or fold as played. I probably lead towards a shove on most turns since I've played with villains like V1 and they tend to spew but the K is obviously a terrible turn card.

Calling a 3=bet oop with smallish stack; you are not quite short stacking, but close; you hit your hand; and do not know what to do...pretty good evidence for not calling pre flop here. nice hand and discussion though; gl.

Hero has 106 BBs. Not shortstacking.

I know exactly what to do here postflop ... That's why I can call.