1/2, weekend, past midnight @ casino

V1 ($500ish) college kid, talking about how he's made more money tonight than at his job the last week. Opens to 12 wide, shown a few random weak holdings when PFR, stationed me down several times with weak holdings

V2 ($200-250) mid 20s, plays daily passively, has commented that his night is going to be all about making correct folds, laid down trip Js on river bet,played AA passively from UTG+1 pre/post raised cbet got it in OTT vs KK

V3 ($130) middle aged woman, terrible player, limps everything but AK, big PPs, she donks/bets whenever she has a hand, extremely weak right

Hero ($400), if they're paying attention, I haven't been active in a few hours due to loads of K3o hands. Was the KK against V2 above. Have been aggro when I've had descent hands or equity but ive been missing everything all night so I've had to fold to river donks and such

OTTH

V1 opens (no limps) in MP to 12
Hero calls with Q8 in CO
V2 calls on BTN
V3 calls from BB

Pot ($43)
JT9

V3 donks for $25
V1 (PFR) raises to $50
Hero...?

Just kinda curious what everyone would do here. Thanks

Make it a small enough raise that the betting can be reopened if V1 decides to shove. I'd click it back to 85 and hope V3 steps on the gas.

Folding pre. Q8s isn't good enough to flat even vs a wide range. It'd be a little better (but still a fold imo) if you were the BTN. You're not, and it's actually quite a bummer the BTN flats and you don't have the very best position.

3-bet the flop and never fold. The 12 combos of KQ are such a bummer, but that's just 12 combos, and you always have excellent equity because you have a blocker to KcQc. So the rare times you're behind KQ exactly, you always have the flush equity (unless you're exactly behind a better flush draw w/one villain and KQ w/another - but that's just such a low equity cooler).

3-betting is good because there's huge value against worse. Also, a huge # of turn cards are bad for action, value, etc.

I 3-bet precisely enough to put V3 all in. 130. I think it's perfect sizing, gets lots of value from V3, gets plenty of over calls from worse from V1, and leaves you with < 1 PSB on the turn, which is perfect imo.

Get it in on flop if V1 4-bets. Otherwise, get it in on all / most turns.

By the way, you flopped huge, which is great. But yes, sometimes, rarely, you actually can have < 10% equity on the flop. It's never often enough to consider folding or not 3-betting, especially against these villains, but the thing is, if there is a problem with the hand - and, imo there is - it's pre-flop. We have a dominated hand that makes dominated flushes, straights, and pairs we're not even in the very best position 200BB deep. I think it's just a snap fold pre.

Im flat calling here. I know a club on the turn will kill your action but they will assume youre on a draw of you flat call and someone is going to pound the pot on the turn for you.

Raising is OK, but I dont want to drive V3 out who probably has AJ. If the button has a piece of this I want him in also. Im shoving just about any turn though.

If hero's read of V3 wasnt "weak tight", then I would agree with the reraise to $130. If V3 was aggro, they would shove in for you on the flop and trap V1 in between you and her.

Reraise to about $175-$200. You have two customers and the 2nd nuts. Bad luck if someone has KQ, but you have flush outs as a backup. You're calling all shoves from V1 and bombing all turns if he calls. You can't call because so many turn cards kill your action. Cold-calling is such a strong move that all villains should be tipped off that you hit the flop.

I'd fold pre or bluff 3!.

Cold calling looks exactly like you have a flush draw. A raise looks like QJ, KQ, T9, 99 ect.

Im not against shoving right here though. I think lots of people would call wth QJ, AcKc and lots of other pair and draw hands. I think a medium raise looks much stronger than a flat call or an all in.

Looks like V3 has KQ based on description.

Flat and see if V3 3b.

What's the play if we flat and V3 does 3-bet?

Pray that V1 calls and then shove.

I'm a bit undecided on this one. Couple of questions: How often does V1 raise flop? You say he has been stationy postflop previously, is he likely to be stationy vs a flop 3bet?


Thinking as I write:

Although KQs and KQo are in both villain's ranges I think they have quite a few other worse hands they can stack off with, certainly V1 can. V3 is weak-tight so I expect her to fold without 2-pair+ but let me know if you thought at time that she calls allin with AJ/KJ.

I guess V1 can call down or shove vs hero flop 3bet with numerous draws, strongish pairs and better I.e. enough worse hands to be +EV for hero despite presence of KQ in his range.

The fact V3 is short stacked makes me much more concerned about getting it right vs V1. I'm certainly not looking to fold vs 3bet from V3 if V1 calls or shoves. If I did call and V3 shoves but V1 folds I'd have to go through combos and my equity. She can have at least as many 2-pair/set combos as KQ so I guess I'd be calling even heads-up vs V3. If I had a read she is so weak/tight postflop she only shoves nuts I'd guess I'd fold but need to check whether FD gives me enough equity vs a range of [KQ].

So, wanting to get it in vs V1 I think we need to raise and get him feeling committed before anything freezes the action on turn. Looking back through your posts I think Willyoman has the best plan: raise to $93 to put V3 allin so V1 can reopen the betting if he wants. Obviously gii on flop if that's what V1 wants, otherwise shove all turns.

Against competent Vs, I agree, but I've seen enough threads in LLSNL where people don't see this and then ask where they went wrong to feel like most V's don't realize this... And these Vs hardly seem competent. Since we're four ways, I prefer flatting. I don't think raising is horrible, just think there's a good chance we get called by hands that leave us with very little equity, whereas flatting keeps in most of the hands we're ahead of, and possibly can solicit a jam from worse (I.e. Sets).

Interesting hand, and the more ive debated, the more i prefer calling vs raising, and i dont think its close. Though, both are still +EV...i think calling is far better, especially in a 1/2 live game where most villians are awful. I am working under the assumption that we are getting it in, or betting large on all but the very worst of turns.

The positives: Amazing hand strength that is masked. POSITION. Pot is building. Wide range of hands we either dominate or are ahead of.
- I want to focus on that last part. The only the holdings here were concerned with is QK or a set. In the nightmare scenario of one person having QK, and the other a set, we still have 30% equity!!!! That's a pretty awesome spot, and worth taking the risk of not fully protecting our hand, when you consider the range of hands that we crush and will get all in on turn when we call, but fold out when we raise here. That's the problem. If they have QK or a set, they are getting it in regardless of our action...so raising here just doesn't seem to achieve anything to me.

Lets look at the other possible holdings these villians could have:

-smaller FD that is drawing dead. 78, drawing dead. Two pair 10J/109/9J, we have 83% equity. Higher FD, 75% equity. Single pair combo hands: JKc, 85% equity. --that's a rather large hand range that we crush quite nicely. I just think that this is too good of a spot and we should be trying to maximize our profits when we are going up against the larger, more likely holdings of range 2 vs worrying about the more unlikely scenario of range 1.

Let it be known that a small raise:

A. screams QK and lets 78, single pair hands fold easily.
B. still lets higher FD's and sets realize their equity.
C. still losing to QK.

Small raise does NOTHING for us in any sense, so i think that can be safely ruled out as the worst option of all 3.

kind of a really bad spot, because KQ is a large range of V3, and then you have V1, who probably doesn't have much and just bloating a pot of which he is most likely going to fold.

still, you can't fold. so,


flat the 50 and see what V3 does. she is most likely going to just flat unless she has KQ, of which we can never fold to her since we have enough flush equity to get it all in with her.

if the turn is a brick, bet 150 and just take it down. if the board pairs, reevaluate.



even though we have a monster, this hand just does not play out well for us since our main competition is V3 who is supertight and doesn't have much money.

don't 3 bet the flop. everything else but KQ is going fold. you can still get a little more value is you just flat.

- If this is 'kind of a really bad spot' for you, i'd like to see what a good spot is.
- Why is QK automatically a large range of V3's range here?!? Because in OP's description of her he said she donks strong hands? Quite the assumption, and your putting far too much stock in OP's reads of this person, which a large percent of the time is way off base (no offense OP, just so much you can know about a player from a couple hours at the table).
- If im concerned about anyone here, its V1...the guy whose alot deeper than V3, opened pre, and just MIN RAISED a donk bet on the wettest board ever. V3's actions up to this point are far more in line with QK than V1 imho. And once again, if one of them have QK and you miss your 30% FD equity. Pat the table and say NH...nothing you can do here really.

I just think you're giving these V's too much credit. The V that donked only does so with a made hand.

The V behind the donk bet min raises. Talk about strength.

My first instinct is to fast play it. But 4 ways I think slow playing it has a lot of value to it that fast playing it may not give you. Unfortunately counting on weak tight V1 shoving over the min raise may be a little too hopeful but betting will nonetheless make it back to her. I flat simply because betting will get back to her. Fingers crossed that she shoves.

Had V not raised the donk bet I am raising here just about 100% of the time.

Interesting hand.

Fold pre. As played raise to at least $115.

A few things:

V1 was in the 1 seat, I was in the 3 seat, V2 in the 4 seat and V3 was in the 8 seat. V1, V2 and I had been talking about how she played very tightly and always donked/bet with a hand. One hand, she raised pre, I flat in LP with AQs (her range for raising in EP is so tight that this might be a fold), she checks low flop/turn, I bet turn, she folds AK. Another she raised JJ pre, shipped 100ish into 50 on low flop.

I'm not saying her range is only/mostly KQ, she would take this like with JJ-99 (don't think she raises JJ because 3 people in hand already), 2 pairs also. QJ might be the worst hand she does this with. On this board and 4 players, it might be tighter.

Not sure if this will help the discussion of ranging them.

FWIW, I ranged:
V3 at {QJ, AJ, JJ-99, KQ, JT, J9, T9}
V1 same + {Axcc, Q8, 87s}

Then do you bluff 3-bet with K2?

Call. This hand doesn't need protection. It needs to find the best way to GII.

If V3 also calls, pot will be $193. V3 left with < pot. Hero left with $338 (V1 covers) for PSR ~ 1.75.

Never folding. If either V has the nut straight, or has higher FD and hits (only 7 outs as you have blockers) or has a set and fills up, it's just a cooler and sometimes that happens (as with KK v AA hand).

Only exception would be if V1 shoves in a manner that can ONLY be the nuts, which requires a live read at the table to be able to fold and I cannot advise via this forum.

Agreed. These spots are just so hard to come by. Your main concern should be maximizing its value, not shutting out action since there's a hand out there that beats you.

FYI: if we were to just flat the $50, then V3 shoved and flipped over JJ, then V3 also shoved and showed QK...we'd be getting a little over 2-1 and be extremely close to a break-even call w/our 31% ish equity. That's how powerful our hand is.

sorry, my math is a tad off. I had 500 of V3 stack going into the pot when its only 400 effective. Would be more like 600 to 340 call, which is ~1.75 to 1...you get my point though lol.

I don't believe for a second that V1 is folding everything but KQ! I struggle to believe it for V3 even if OP reads her as weak-tight.

If we're not happy playing this hand fast we definitely shouldn't be calling it preflop in the first place.

I would laugh if they both had KQ though. Especially when we make our flush and stack them both

We are (incorrectly) playing this hand preflop to hit a monster flop in a multiway pot, and win as much money as we can when we do so. Calling accomplishes this better than raising all the dominated hands out.